Raise Dead: A nice big bone to the simulationists

[Celebrim]

One thing many of the critics of societies in which the rich live for ever and can be raised from the dead are forgetting, is that we are also dealing with a society where everyone can get tangible evidence of an afterlife. Everyone is going to live forever in some form. It's just a question of where.

A very serious question in such a universe is, "Why would anyone want to live (here) forever?"

Your average peasant certainly doesn't want to. His life is tough. He wants to live "well" according to his beliefs about what that is, and then go to a "better place". Granted, the "better place" is not absolutely better. We shouldn't presume Christian assumptions about the afterlife. But neither necessarily need we presume everyone who isn't a hero goes to a dreery Greek Hades. Of course, if we did assume non-heroes went to a dreery greek Hades, that would answer the question of why would anyone want to live here forever pretty definitively.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

No idea if it has been mentioned inbetween in this pretty interesting discussion, but if I was looking for a version of Raise Dead that caused less problems, and was "believable" enough still, I'd look at the way the Iron Kingdoms setting handles it.

- Raise Dead is a 9th level spell, no other way to get someone back from the dead (except Reincarnation)
- The chance that a cleric of one of the gods will raise you depends on the god and church he belongs to, your level, your own patron god, and maybe even if the god in question doesn't think he/she needs your soul more in the afterlife right now.
- Raising somebody can have pretty dangerous side-effects on top of it, because a soul coming back from the afterlife into a body that has been dead for a while isn't going smoothly a lot of times.

I can only recommend it to those who dislike the standard Raise Dead system. I actually believe it also is a lot more of a bone for a "simulationist" (whatever that is) than the idea they are kicking around for 4E.

 

[jdrakeh]

Raise Dead: Its one of those things that is always an issue for world builders. How does a society deal with a world in raising the dead is so easy? Kings that can just come back, high priests that cannot really be killed.

Honestly, why not juyst take issue with magic altogether? Nohting like D&D magic has ever or will ever exist on Earth. This is just another one of those areas that highlights the total non-simulationist nature of D&D with regard to emulating real world physics. D&D simply isn't a simulation of reality. It never has been. People who continue to expect this thing from D&D will continue to be disappointed.

 

[Derren]

One thing many of the critics of societies in which the rich live for ever and can be raised from the dead are forgetting, is that we are also dealing with a society where everyone can get tangible evidence of an afterlife. Everyone is going to live forever in some form. It's just a question of where.

A very serious question in such a universe is, "Why would anyone want to live (here) forever?"

Raise Dead does not allow you to live forever, it just makes it very unlikely that you die because of unnatural means. After 70-90 years most human nobles will die, Raise Dead or not unless advanced transformation magic is applied.

 

[VannATLC]

While a valid point for 3e worldisms, its not longer true of 4e.

*some* people get an afterlife with their god. Most disappear.

 

[lukelightning]

I've never seen what the big deal about raise dead, et. al., was. Maybe it's because I see D&D as a game and not a novel.

I just want to play the game and keep playing the game. If a beloved PC dies, I want to get that PC back in a reasonably timely manner so we can keep on playing. I don't want to have to stop the game in order to go on an epic side trek to get the PC's soul back... that basically entails saying to Bob "don't bother coming to the game for next couple of weeks while the rest of us get your character's soul back."

If you make it that difficult, what's to keep Bob from pulling a "Brewfest" and go "here's my new character. He's an elf ranger just like Skipper, my previous character, and in fact is my previous character's twin brother... and out of respect for his deceased twin he wants you to call him Skipper."

Of course, I'm also used to my gaming group in which we all have a gazillion character ideas floating around in our heads, so we kind of get excited when a character dies... that means we can finally use that other character idea we had.

 

[Celebrim]

Raise Dead does not allow you to live forever, it just makes it very unlikely that you die because of unnatural means. After 70-90 years most human nobles will die, Raise Dead or not unless advanced transformation magic is applied.

Pardon me for being unclear. My reply was made in the context of my earlier mention of 'Potions of Longevity' and similar life extenders. My point being that 'Raise Dead' is of a class of 'medical technologies' that extend life, not that any particular one of these technologies is in and of itself sufficient for immortality (or even long life).

 

[Filcher]

Love it. Why leave the afterlife unless you have a job to do?

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

I am familiar with OoTS, and the event you mention. I think it shows perfectly why the old rule works fine. [discussion about the differences between Lord Shojo and Roy Greenhilt...]

As a matter of fact, I wasn't talking about Lord Shojo as an example of a dramatic failure of a Raise Dead spell.
---Spoiler below---

Spoiler

I was talking about Roy´s little brother.

---Spoiler above---​

 

[Steely Dan]

I and most of the people I have role-played with detest all forms of raise dead etc, it almost feels like cheating to us.