Raise Dead: A nice big bone to the simulationists

[wgreen]

This way it is not so DM fiatish, has some hard coded rules for how the world works and kings etc don't come back from the dead unless they were heroes in there own right,

Of course, we'll need campaign sourcebook writers to stop making every last one of their kings and such 17th-level fighters and paladins...

-Will!

 

[hong]

This is cute, and it's "simulationist" in the sense that it vaguely resembles something from a Sword & Sorcery fantasy tale or the like (as opposed to High Fantasy, wierdly enough, where Fate is rarely in play in this sense), but I think it's little "over-specific" in the way a lot of the 4E stuff is, in that it specifically suggests that there are such things as Fates and Destinies (which is new to D&D as a solid background element, I'd suggest, and doesn't fit into some campaign settings at all) and that they're "real" and "actual", and that "the peasants" don't have them.

Nonsense. It is UNDERspecific compared to other versions of D&D, which have always made resurrection something that depends only on how much money/time/resources you're willing to spend on it. That is what the s*mul*tionists are complaining about.

Do I hate that? No, I kind of like it. But I think Mr WotC in the interview is really understating or underestimating how much this matters. It's a huge deal, and dictates a very specific kind of world/cosmos (unless people are just dumb and "don't get it", attributing "failure to res" to random whims of the gods/useless clerics, which seems unlikely).

"Random whims of the gods" seems very likely indeed, given that gods are pretty much uncontactable and inscrutable. That applies in particular to the Raven Queen, goddess of death.

 

[Derren]

"Random whims of the gods" seems very likely indeed, given that gods are pretty much uncontactable and inscrutable. That applies in particular to the Raven Queen, goddess of death.

And appropriate encounters for 4E epic level parties.
When epic 4E parties are expected to fight gods as their final enemy, how can they be uncontactable and inscrutable? Not to forget that becoming a (demi)god seems to be a valid and reachable character goal.

 

[hong]

And appropriate encounters for 4E epic level parties.
When epic 4E parties are expected to fight gods as their final enemy, how can they be uncontactable and inscrutable? Not to forget that becoming a (demi)god seems to be a valid and reachable character goal.

That's when you're good enough that you can pull gods out of their uncontactable and inscrutable bubbles.

 

[BryonD]

Nonsense. It is UNDERspecific compared to other versions of D&D, which have always made resurrection something that depends only on how much money/time/resources you're willing to spend on it. That is what the s*mul*tionists are complaining about.

No that would be the straw man.

 

[MichaelK]

The revolt stuff works all well and good when you're trying to capture a castle or grain silo or iron mine or whatever.. but what you want is a spellcaster. You can hold him hostage to do the spell and that'll probably work for a short time. You have to leave him hale and hearty, though, to be able to cast the spell which means he also has access to all the other spells he could cast. Instead of Raise Dead, he prepares Lesser Planar Ally, summons a Janni and plane shifts out of prison.

And it gets worse. You're capturing a spellcaster who is granted their abilities at the whims of powerful extra-planar beings. Even if you convince the cleric to perform the spell, unless the deity is willing no magic will happen.

 

[hong]

No that would be the straw man.

Well, in that case, perhaps you're complaining about nothing.

 

[Traycor]

While I agree with the sentiment, I am not sure what this changes. If most PC's and major villians have unfinished destinies, how is that different from what we have now?

Well, in Forgotten Realms where there are lvl 10+ priests on every street corner in major cities, it means that every merchant can't just go get a rez if he falls off a cart and breaks his neck.

Under the old system, in a wealthy city like Waterdeep where clerics were overflowing, there was actually very little reason for ANYONE with a reasonable amount of wealth to ever die.

In fact... It would have been so easy for rich folk to get a rez, I could almost see family members being accused of murder if they didn't get the person rezed. Coming back from the dead should never be "simple" and should never be a "given".

 

[MichaelK]

Coming back from the dead should never be "simple" and should never be a "given".

This is why I used a modified version of the resurrection mishaps table from heroes of horror.

 

[Clawhound]

In this case, what is good for the goose is not good for the gander. Coming back from the dead for PC's is a mechanic designed for the players, and in that context works tolerably. Coming back from the dead for the NPC's proves problematic because this creates societal conundrums that impact your entire setting.

I can see why designers changed the ideal to, "Nobody gets brought back to life EXCEPT the exceptional." You've now reduced the complexity of your design problem while retaining the benefits of the rule.