Random thoughts on 2nd Ed.

[fletch137]

Was feeling a bit nostalgic the other day and decided to bust out my old 2nd ed. PHB. It's been, like, 25 years since I played it, and was curious how much I'd forgotten about the game in the decades since. As I started reading it, though, I had a few thoughts that didn't warrant a [let's read] style thread but which I still wanted to have some conversations on.

Right off the bat, I really got a feel for how low-fantasy it assumed back then with the stat rolls. With a 3d6 for each stat, the game must've assumed average abilities, with higher stats being an actual bonus rather than a requirement. In today's D&D it sounds like you've broken your character if you don't have an 18-20 in your primary stat. Here, having a 15 was probably worth bragging about.

Sure there are alternate rolling methods offered (we *still* use 4d6/drop one to this day), but that's still a far cry from today's point buy customibility.

The big eye-opener from that was the limitation on what level spells a PC wizard could cast based on his intelligence score. You could only cast spells of a level of 10-INT. Even assuming INT was the highest ability score for a magic-user, you could only expect a 14 or 15 or so.

Was the game really set up with the assumption a party's wizard would only ever be able to cast 5th level spells?

 

[Ashtagon]

Yes.

To be sure, it was also set up with the assumption that 9th-11th level was about when characters would be settling down to run kingdoms rather than continue adventuring. It was set up so political power rather than personal power would be the next benchmark.

 

[delericho]

Ah, 2nd Edition. I had an absurd amount of fun with that game, despite it no longer being my favourite. I was actually looking at my PHB at the weekend, looking out the table of capacities for backpacks, sacks and the like, which the 3e PHB amusingly omits to provide.

Right off the bat, I really got a feel for how low-fantasy it assumed back then with the stat rolls. With a 3d6 for each stat, the game must've assumed average abilities, with higher stats being an actual bonus rather than a requirement.

Of course, I doubt very many groups played that way. I know we never did - we either used 4d6-drop-lowest or the 7d6-and-assign methods.

(I do find it interesting comparing this with the 1st Edition methods - 2nd Edition appears to have the distinction of being the only edition to lower the expected power levels of PCs.)

The big eye-opener from that was the limitation on what level spells a PC wizard could cast based on his intelligence score. You could only cast spells of a level of 10-INT. Even assuming INT was the highest ability score for a magic-user, you could only expect a 14 or 15 or so.

Was the game really set up with the assumption a party's wizard would only ever be able to cast 5th level spells?

I guess it must have been. That said, I'd be surprised if PCs hit up against that limitation very often - as with the level-limits, the campaign would either be over before then, or the DM and the player would figure out some way around it.

 

[Sekhmet]

It was generally expected that Wizards had around that 15 int mark upon character creation.

At level 10-11, when you're becoming a very powerful person indeed, you can still only cast 5th level spells (which your starting intelligence can afford).
Table 4 on page 16 of your Player's Handbook shows you the Int requirement of any spell level. Thankfully, with a 15 intelligence you can already cast level 7 spells. A 16 would net you 8th level spells, and an 18 would allow you access to 9th level.

To obtain higher level magics, there are a number of methods to artificially raise your intelligence a few points.
The Tome of Clear Thought (pg137 of the DMG) provides +1 to Intelligence are only 8,000GP. A lot, yes, but to a 11th or better level character, it seems a paltry sum to add an entirely new level of spells.
The Gem of Insight can grant you an additional point of Intelligence (and Wisdom) as well.

 

[Greg K]

To obtain higher level magics, there are a number of methods to artificially raise your intelligence a few points.
The Tome of Clear Thought (pg137 of the DMG) provides +1 to Intelligence are only 8,000GP. A lot, yes, but to a 11th or better level character, it seems a paltry sum to add an entirely new level of spells.
The Gem of Insight can grant you an additional point of Intelligence (and Wisdom) as well.

Of course, one had to find such items which meant either 1) your DM rolled it randomly or placed it within the treasure or on an NPC; 2) your DM allowed it to be found for sale; or c) your DM ran a module where it was included among the treasure.

 

[Mallus]

Of course, I doubt very many groups played that way. I know we never did - we either used 4d6-drop-lowest or the 7d6-and-assign methods.

My groups did likewise. In the long-running 2e campaign I ran, we used 7d6, assign to base scores of 8. In fact, I can't recall a single AD&D/2e campaign where players bragged about having a 15 in their classes primary stat. It was more like "oh noes, I only haz a 15!".

(well, we didn't have LOLspeak in the 1980s, but you get the idea)

I'm gearing up to start a new campaign come August. I'm running AD&D now, I should really dust off all my old 2e material and take a good look...

 

[delericho]

The Tome of Clear Thought (pg137 of the DMG) provides +1 to Intelligence are only 8,000GP. A lot, yes, but to a 11th or better level character, it seems a paltry sum to add an entirely new level of spells.

???

A Tome of Clear Thought is worth 8,000 XP[/]i]. That is, a mage who creates such an item is awarded that number of XP.

2nd Edition RAW does not allow magic items for purchase by default. Indeed, the DMG contains many dire warnings about allowing PCs to do this.

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] Thanks for catching my mistake. I had meant to write XP (still, a paltry sum for the possibility of additional spell levels and slots).
Page 84 offers up the possibilities for magical item creation, and the later chapters on magical items offer up the hard cost (assuming your DM isn't fudging things).

I'll reiterate, though. A paltry sum for additional slots and spell levels.

 

[fletch137]

Table 4 on page 16 of your Player's Handbook shows you the Int requirement of any spell level. Thankfully, with a 15 intelligence you can already cast level 7 spells. A 16 would net you 8th level spells, and an 18 would allow you access to 9th level.

Holy carp, you're right! I wonder what pre-conception baggage I brought in to make me think I read INT-10.

 

[fletch137]

While we're talking wizard stats, would you take a look at the minimums required for the specialty wizards? Continuing on the premise that a 15 stat is supposed to be exceptional, the vast majority of specialty schools require a 16 in a non-INT stat.

They must've known nobody was using the 3d6 stat roll option, or else they wouldn't require a diviner to have a 16 Wisdom or paladins to have a 17 Charisma.

Thinking back, I don't think I ever played anything requiring outlandish requirements. The one time somebody brought a paladin, I'm sure we all assumed he was cheating.

I'm kind of dwelling on this whole 3d6?!?! premise. Although I'm sure nobody seriously attempted to game with that, I'm so tired of optimized point builds that I'm really tempted to try it. While I'm sure there's a great sense of "hurrah" that comes from getting a good set of stats ("check it, I qualify to play a ranger!"), I doubt that chance would be much comfort to the guy with straight 10s...