Rangers, Feats, and Fighting Styles

[Kobold Stew]

Ok, I'm thinking of Ranger builds and need convincing that the two fight styles are balanced. I'm not trying to tweak-out here, but really understand what a typical build for a ranger is likely to be.

An ranger gets a set of three feats from fighting styles over 11 levels. One is TWF, Imp TWF and Greater TWF, the other Rapidshot, Many shot and Improved precise shot.

Here's my problem: the archery tree seems to speak for many of the other feats (which are limited are precious, of course), so that there is unlikely to be any variety in ranger archers in the first eleven levels.

Observations:

1. Anyone pursuing archery will need to take both Point Blank Shot and Precise shot.
2. Rapidshot and manyshot do not add abilities but present mutually exclusive abilities.
3. Archery has other feats which are desirable (mounted combat and archery; far shot)
3. The TWF tree is a much clearer linear progression and does not necessarily speak for any other feat. TWDef, power attack, weapon finesse may be right for the character, but none of them are as automatic as Point Blank and Precise shot.
4. Certain feats (Weapon focus, dodge/mobility) benefit both fighting styles about equally.

Questions:
Is this correct? Is there more customizability with the TWF route?

Or are there obvious no-brainer feats that simply must be taken that I've not seen?

(All my examples are PHB only, 'cause that's what I use; I'd be interested if the situation changes when you start using other material.)

Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Numenorean]

I think the fighting style split is decent, however they are not well balanced with one another.

You can be a TWF ranger and not need to take any additional feats to use that style. However Archery rangers really are left high and dry without point-blank shot, and precise shot. So archery rangers need to dip in to their allotted feats to really use that fighting style. Thats what I object to and why I feel its not balanced well.

A fighter makes a better archer per say IMO.

The ranger archery path needs to be changed IMO, somehow, to include point-blank shot, or precise shot ... basically so the ranger can use his bow skills to fire in to general melee w/o having to take 2 additional feats to do so.

Thats my gripe.

 

[Rackhir]

I don't see the problem with the fact that you want more feats if you are doing the archer. Take 2 levels of Fighter, you'll get two feats for it. That will cover the two extra feats you want. Or your feats for 1st lv and being human could cover it.

Archery is generally more powerful and more useful at lower levels than TWF is. So I have no problem that you are going want more feats to be hitting maximum effectiveness.

Manyshot and Rapid Shot may be mutually exclusive in usage, but they are both useful in different situations. Also Manyshot is a prereq for Imp Rapid Shot, so it is hardly useless to an archer.

 

[Numenorean]

I don't see the problem with the fact that you want more feats if you are doing the archer. Take 2 levels of Fighter, you'll get two feats for it. That will cover the two extra feats you want. Or your feats for 1st lv and being human could cover it.

Archery is generally more powerful and more useful at lower levels than TWF is. So I have no problem that you are going want more feats to be hitting maximum effectiveness.

Manyshot and Rapid Shot may be mutually exclusive in usage, but they are both useful in different situations. Also Manyshot is a prereq for Imp Rapid Shot, so it is hardly useless to an archer.

A solution that suggests taking 2 levels of fightet to fix the problem is not IMO a solution. If anything it highlights the problem with the archery style of the ranger class.

What if a ranger is not human, but an elf or half-elf? Improved rapid shot- we should keep this within the core rules snce the debated points, archery and twf are within the core rules.

Any edge archery has at the lower levels is greatly reduced w/o precise shot (and point blank shot). The reason I state it like that is because you could always give precise shot as part of a ranger archery track w/o having the pre-req.

Archery should be just as viable as TWF w/o having to take additional feats in order to make it so. Until then it is IMO broken.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Thanks for all the thoughts so far. It seems we are all on the same page, and I have not grossly misread the situation. Other thoughts?

 

[Jdvn1]

There's also the thrower build, from which you can benefit from TWF and Rapid Shot.

 

[Li Shenron]

Point Blank Shot per se is no way "necessary" for any archer, Point Blank Shot is important only because it's prerequisite to almost all archery feats (except WF and WS).

Precise Shot is much more important than PBS for an archer.

If I were to modify the ranger's archery path, I would not include PBS at all. Precise Shot could be included, but it had to be granted ASAP (2nd level, in place of Rapid Shot), otherwise you'd have to wait too many levels, and an archer without Precise Shot is much less effective.

However, the archery path is even better for a ranger who does _not_ focus on archery, but only "dips into archery" and uses it only as _one_ of its skills. This IMHO because it gives you 3 feats without the prerequisite PBS.

It's true that Rapid Shot and Manyshot together somewhat overlaps in use, but OTOH Improved Precise Shot is a very good feat. So you get the equivalent of 2 very good feats and 1 which is average at best.
By comparison, the other path give you a very good feat (2WF) an average feat (I2WF) and a mediocre feat (G2WF).

 

[Endur]

Yes and No.

On the one hand, I agree that Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot should be taken by a Ranger that wants to use a bow 100% of the time.

On the other hand, you can play a Ranger who takes the archery path for distance enemies and uses a melee weapon while in the dungeon or other close range combats. That Ranger might get the free feats "rapid shot" and "improved precise shot" without ever taking another archery feat. That Ranger might then use his normal feats for the power attack feat chain or another melee oriented feat chain. After all, PBS and Precise Shot are useless against distant enemies.

For a Ranger that wants to use two weapon wielding 100% of the time, there are tons of feats to spend on, especially if you use Complete Warrior, etc.. Either Two Weapon Defense, etc. or Shield Bash, etc.