RANT: Attacks of Opportunity

[Henry]

I still chuckle when I read this. If I might expand on it...

So, hit points represent the ability to be hit and take damage AND to be hit and reduce damage? Therefore, if I have my logic right, hit points represent taking damage AND not taking damage!

Yep -- exactly! It's why I love it as a system -- it can mean whatever the resultant story needs it to mean.

 

[evildmguy]

Um, isn't the whole point of gaining levels that you become able to do things you wouldn't even have considered at lower levels?

In any case, your main complaint seems to be about the hit point model of damage. Most of the points you've raised seem to be only tangentially related to AoOs, or could be applied to regular attacks just as easily.

To the second point, yes. I don't like hit points and yes, what I am talking about could be applied to regular attacks.

To the first point, I don't like metagaming such that saying "I will only take 20% hit point damage" is acceptable. Even with lots of hit points, who wants to be hit? Why accept a hit? It just works in d20 because of how abstract hit points are but it is still metagame thinking, imo. YMMV

My only point with regards AoO was a) the concept is a good idea and b) they are ineffective against high level characters or monsters.

My point with regards to b is that the point of AoO was to allow the front line mooks the chance to stop the attackers from getting to their boss. What seems to happen with AoO, though, is that it is completely effective at low levels and completely ineffective at high levels. And this could be across the board with many ideas. For example, I don't have numbers but an attack against a casting mage (who for some reason didn't cast defensively) will probably not stop them from casting at high level as they will make the rolls needed to keep casting. I suppose multiple attackers might stop the caster but one certainly wouldn't. Yet it would at low levels.

Hmm.

I suppose I need to refine my point to this. AoO are a good concept but seem to lose their effectiveness the higher level the combatants are. How about that?

Have a good one! Take care!

edg

 

[evildmguy]

Yep -- exactly! It's why I love it as a system -- it can mean whatever the resultant story needs it to mean.

Please don't misunderstand! I may not be currently playing d20 but I still respect the game and its players.

I am merely amused that the game has gotten complicated to the point of definitions contradicting themselves.

For myself, I don't like that the same mechanic means being hit or twisting out of the way, with the same game mechanic effects. That's all.

Thanks for the reply!

Have a good one! Take care!

edg

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

(2) One way in which AoOs could be streamlined is to make a short list of actions which don't provoke AoOs and then assume that anything else you do will provoke an AoO.

Yup. Out of my 5 players, only 1 had played 3.5 before I started the current game. I simplified AoO's by stating any action draws an AoO except
1) Melee attacks
2) Moving 5 feet (and only 5 feet)
3) Moving after you make a Tumble check
4) Casting a spell IF you make a Concentration check

I know the exceptions, but since I'm the DM, they really dont hacve to. All they really need to know is you'll normally get smacked if you try something funny.

 

[papakee]

In other threads, everybody wants to talk about charisma skill use and stat use not being taken into consideration when playing their character. Why is it ok to move one's finger along them map to move their stupid fighter through the most AoO friendly path? That seems counter intuitive.

We've not played with AoOs for a while now and haven't really missed them. It wasn't because they were too hard, just time consumming and did take away from the RP. One just assumes that their characters avoid them whenever possible. Yes, one, no matter how poor a roleplayer, can still RP while moving their miniature like a piece on the monopoly board , but it does distract..for ex: "My fighter charges forward...You shall die oh villian of evil..." ::crap:: picks up 3 minis knocked over. "now where was I...you shall die oh villian of..." :M says make a tumble check, rolls dice "Ouch... you shall die oh villian of...wait, does that guy with the spear have reach I only have 10 hit points now? ok...no.. you shall die." ::rolls dice::

It saves time because everybody was plotting their movements most optimally (time consuming because the hoard of 10 orcs moved right before your turn), maxing out concentration and tumble (extra dice rolls) and less complexity (looking up on the chart of 62 things that envoke/do not evoke AoOs).

If AoO's are so great, what other game systems use them or have incorporated them since 3.0 came out? [roleplaying games only, wargames don't count as they have add AoOs (zone of control) since the 60s]

 

[glass]

I am merely amused that the game has gotten complicated to the point of definitions contradicting themselves.

As Henry pointed out, it's not contradiction, it's flexibility.


glass.

 

[Mark CMG]

AoO are an imperfect solution to a particular problem. They are one solution amongst many imperfect solutions. There are games which work perfectly well with them, there are games that work perfectly well with a 'zones of control' mechanism and there are games that work perfectly well with no mechanism for them at all. None of the mechanisms perfectly model real life, all of them can work just fine for a game.

I've thought about making an AoO a standard action that can be taken out of turn under the same conditions that trigger it now (or, perhaps, a few less than do so now).

 

[Odhanan]

I mean, I don't know anyone who has ever been cut deeply or shot who wants to repeat the experience! Further, the *rules* support the fact that a sword with no special killing ability CAN NOT kill a high(er) level character in a single blow. That's just not true in real life.

In RL, people don't have levels, don't have magic items, and life isn't a RPG.

 

[Henry]

Please don't misunderstand! I may not be currently playing d20 but I still respect the game and its players.

I am merely amused that the game has gotten complicated to the point of definitions contradicting themselves.

For myself, I don't like that the same mechanic means being hit or twisting out of the way, with the same game mechanic effects. That's all.

I will agree though - in a few instances, some DMs not taking note of this vagueness won't adapt to the one or two screwy instances that crop up (e.g. poison on a blade). I've also seen other systems handle it very differently (been digging through Warhammer recently, with its wounds, armor, dodges, and parries, and I've been familiar with GURPS' similar takes) but it's why I also throw in a light nick here and there with every hit that has poison involved. In fact, I do this with Vp/WP systems, too, because poison happens on more than just wounds!

To be honest, it's never occurred to me to be a contradiction, just one heck of an abstract that I've never found hard to go with.

Thanks for the reply!

Have a good one! Take care!

edg

And you, too!

 

[evildmguy]

In RL, people don't have levels, don't have magic items, and life isn't a RPG.

/way off topic

I merely find the idea of hit points too abstract for my taste.

Further, I don't like how hit points effects role playing.

At first level, no one is going to rush past five monsters who can use an AoO to get to the bad guy, no matter how wimpy the monsters are, because that will kill them. Same for third level, maybe even up to fifth level, depending on the monsters involved and the current hit points of the character.

But wait! Now we are tenth level! Suddenly, our verismillitude has changed. What used to kill a character is merely an inconvenience. My question is simply, how did the character, after x levels of this manoveur being fatal, suddenly decide, "Naw, I'll survive it this time?"

That, to me, is metagame playing, and it's what I don't prefer about d20. It doesn't make it bad, just not my preference.

So, you are correct that we, in real life, don't have levels but how did our characters realize they have hit points?

Thanks for the reply!

Have a good one! Take care!

edg