[rant] Spiked Chains are for Power Gamer

[MacMathan]

I have not seen too much of a problem with them in our campaigns. The changes to Trip in 3.5 do give it a bit of a boost but the boost applies to all tripping weapons.

Also let's see, spend a feat or have someone cast a first level spell (Enlarge) on the fighter instead I would say the new Enlarge takes enough of the advantage away from the spiked chain to easily make up for any gain from the changes to Trip.

As far as stopping the "step 5' cast" maybe at low levels but by mid levels most casters I have seen easily make the cast-defensively check to avoid the whole problem.(Or if they are smart casters they are not even on the ground in the first place)

 

[Rozman]

Also let's see, spend a feat or have someone cast a first level spell (Enlarge) on the fighter instead

Or:

Spend the Feats and have someone cast Enlarge on the Fighter.

Assuming EWP: Spiked Chain, Expertise, Improved Trip

Just for starters:
a) you threaten up to 4 squares away
b) +2 Str bonus, which neutralizes your -1 Attack penalty
c) another +4 bonus on the Trip check for size
d) chain damage increases to 2d6

Congratulations, for all that work, you've now neutralized the size/quadruped bonus (against being tripped) of a Mule.

This is, granted, very gross (+8 on the Trip check) vs. a bipedal Medium non-Dwarf. (Enough qualifiers in there for ya?

Lots of work for a fairly specific gain, but could be deadly effective in the right circumstances.

Note that this is entirely feasible for a 3rd level party...

 

[Kark001]

Just go for the Ranseur / Greatsword combo...
with quickdraw you have all the effects of a spiked chain with way more damage.
All it costs is one feat, which is even more versatile then an exotic weapon proficiency.

Beside...every high level caster has a very good concentration check (i havent met one who didnt have it maxed yet), so the caster just goes on defensive casting and no AoO. Thats the way my gm is running the show anyway.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

That difficulty has very little to do with the Spiked chain though. It's more of an Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes problem combined with the changes to the rules for being prone and the ability to take multiple AoOs on the same character.

A PC with a guisarm, combat reflexes, and improved trip (possible at first level--unlike a similar build using spiked chain) will be able to reliably put characters on the ground and keep them there. Toss Polymorph and/or enlarge on him and he's got 30' reach and +12 to his trip roll before adding his strength bonus (although he can't attack the 15' next to him).

Similarly, a cleric of Hextor with the strength domain is likely to quite brutal when he uses Enlarge and Righteous Might then starts laying about himself with a heavy flail. Give him combat reflexes and improved trip and characters will probably be consistently full attacked while prone and unable to reach the cleric.

Or just try an unusually smart Frost Giant fighter with combat reflexes Improved Trip and a guisarme.

If you can pull the "broken" tactics off with a weapon other than the spiked chain, odds are good that it's broken because of some rule other than the spiked chain.

Add this in with the so many other points mentioned and I join the 'it's overpowered crowd'.

 

[Darklone]

Just go for the Ranseur / Greatsword combo...
with quickdraw you have all the effects of a spiked chain with way more damage.
All it costs is one feat, which is even more versatile then an exotic weapon proficiency.

You forget that you have to drop one of these weapons when you change them.

It's not a problem of the Spiked Chain, it's the combination with Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip and Enlarge that makes this built a little bit ... weird.

The only balancing argument: As mentioned above, you need high strength to make up for the damage, high dex to enjoy many AoOs, high Con (though this is not as valid for you as for other fighters since you'll likely get hit less often anyway) and high Int for the Expertise chain. For standard point buy groups, this will be balanced, for 40 point buy guys, it will be crazy.

I expect to see many RogX/FtrX/Sor 1 with Enlarge Person and Shield spell soon.

 

[Kark001]

You forget that you have to drop one of these weapons when you change them.

It's not a problem of the Spiked Chain, it's the combination with Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip and Enlarge that makes this built a little bit ... weird.

The only balancing argument: As mentioned above, you need high strength to make up for the damage, high dex to enjoy many AoOs, high Con (though this is not as valid for you as for other fighters since you'll likely get hit less often anyway) and high Int for the Expertise chain. For standard point buy groups, this will be balanced, for 40 point buy guys, it will be crazy.

I expect to see many RogX/FtrX/Sor 1 with Enlarge Person and Shield spell soon.

Well, my gm handled the putting away of the weapon with quickdraw as well, its just after all the same maneuver, only reversed.
As to the Rogx/Ftrx/Sor 1 builds...a gm can always disallow them.

 

[Pielorinho]

Well, my gm handled the putting away of the weapon with quickdraw as well, its just after all the same maneuver, only reversed.

Bad idea. Bad, bad idea. And it's not the same maneuver at all. Try this:

Take the knives out of a knife block, and place the knife block on a chair. Put a butter knife in the block. Sit down next to it.

Without looking, reach down and snatch the knife out. Easy, eh? Now, without looking, slam the knife back into the block. See why I wanted you to use a butter knife?

Not only is it unrealistic (sheathing a weapon requires a precision that drawing a weapon doesn't require), it's unbalancing, for exactly the reason you just mentioned.

Daniel

 

[Verdigris]

I agree with Pielorinho about the whole "sheathing thing" being much harder than drawing a weapon.

Take the example elsewhere on this board where PCs are using barf as a weapon against a troll.

Ever try to resheathe barf?

Lets just say its messy...

 

[Bagpuss]

If your DM lets you sheath a Ranseur he has a problem as well, its a polearm if you aren't holding it with at least one hand you'll have had to drop it.

 

[cerberus2112]

Watch Kung-Fu theatre once in a while

If you've ever seen someone wielding any of those funky asian chain weapons, you'd know that in the hands of a skilled user they are that good! Its difficult to approach someone wielding one of those things (hence the extra threatened area) and they can mess you up!