[rant] Spiked Chains are for Power Gamer

[Al]

They shouldn't both have Greater Weapon Spec: the spiked-chain wielder instead spent that feat on Exotic Weapon Prof. Or if they both have GWS, the greatsword fighter has another cool feat he can use.

And both the chain-wielder and the sword-wielder can trip the retreating wizard -- it's just that the chain wielder can use the chain to do it.

A 12th level human fighter has no less than 13 feats. There is no reason why he should not be able to take GWS with his preferred weapon. Indeed, for a main-battle-tank-type fighter, he's getting rather desperate by this stage as to what feats to choose (though, I suppose, he could branch into ranged feats).

As for tripping retreating wizards, against the sword-wielder, the wizard has no cause for retreating, as he can simply 5' step back and cast.

With regard to retreating casters and casting on the defensive, I will concede that this aspect of the chain grows less useful at higher levels. Nevertheless, even as late as 10th level, a caster without Combat Casting is going to fail defensive casting checks around 25% of the time, assuming maxed-out Concentration and 13 Con. More usefully, however, it can really take out archers, who have no equivalent defensive archery (unless they have a non-core PrC such as the Order of the Bow Initiate).

PS The problems with the greatsword/ranseur are numerous compared to the spiked chain. Firstly, they are two separate weapons, so it is much more difficult to soak feats into them (yes, even the fighter will have problems taking *all* the relevants feats for two weapons). Secondly, they are far more costly at high levels (two weapons=2x as much cost for equivalent enchantments). Thirdly, sheathing a weapon is *not* a free action even if drawing one is- so one would have to drop the weapon rather than sheath one. Fourthly, you can only drop + draw on your turn, so it is useless with regard to AoOs (the main usage of the chain's unique reach ability). All in all, it's a poor option!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

With regard to retreating casters and casting on the defensive, I will concede that this aspect of the chain grows less useful at higher levels. Nevertheless, even as late as 10th level, a caster without Combat Casting is going to fail defensive casting checks around 25% of the time, assuming maxed-out Concentration and 13 Con.

A 13 con is rather low for a 10th level wizard--IME, con is more often 14 or 16. (And, for wizards, maxed out concentration is more of a given than an assumption). However, more significantly, the 25% figure is only for spells of their highest castable level. Your 13 con wizard, for instance would only have a 5% chance of failing to cast a 1st level spell defensively and a 10% chance for a 2nd level spell, etc.

PS The problems with the greatsword/ranseur are numerous compared to the spiked chain. Firstly, they are two separate weapons, so it is much more difficult to soak feats into them (yes, even the fighter will have problems taking *all* the relevants feats for two weapons). Secondly, they are far more costly at high levels (two weapons=2x as much cost for equivalent enchantments). Thirdly, sheathing a weapon is *not* a free action even if drawing one is- so one would have to drop the weapon rather than sheath one. Fourthly, you can only drop + draw on your turn, so it is useless with regard to AoOs (the main usage of the chain's unique reach ability). All in all, it's a poor option!

It's far less of a problematic concept in 3.5 than it is in 3.0 because 3.5 rules encourage the possession of multiple weapons. Creatures with DR/ slashing (Zombies are the only ones I can think of at the moment) would reduce the spiked chain wielder's efficiency. More significantly, the various DR/Cold Iron, DR/Adamantium, DR/silver, DR/Good, and DR/Lawful or Chaotic seem to demand a minimum of an adamantium weapon, a cold iron weapon, a scroll of align weapon, and a vial of silversheen. It will probably be more common for weapon dependent characters to have three weapons--cold iron, silver, and adamantium.

This situation favors the character who wields multiple weapons--for instance a Guisarme/Heavy Flail wielder--by making the disadvantages of his setup more universal (the need for multiple masterwork or enchanted weapons) and by making Quickdraw more generally useful.

The changes to the bane enhancement (+1 equivalent) also favor the multiple weapon character. For a single weapon wielder, a +1 construct and evil outsider bane weapon isn't a good purchase. However, for the character who normally relies on his +2 Icy Burst adamantium guisarm, having a +1 cold iron evil outsider bane heavy flail and +1 magical beast bane armor spikes for close quarters fighting is a fairly attractive proposition. (Especially since the choice of a weapon's material and damage type already partially predicts the foes against whom it will be most useful).

 

[MadScientist]

The base damage dice, at high level, is relatively trivial. Consider the difference between a spiked chain wielder and a greatsword wielder by 12th level. Both have +2 flaming weapons, 22 strength, and Greater Weapon Spec. The average damage for the spiked chain is 23.5, for the greatsword is 25.5. Even factoring in the crit multiplier differential, the greatsword scarcely does 3 or 4 more points, which at high level is relatively minimal. At high level, remember, the damage dice is clearly superseded by strength, magic and feats.

At high level the crit range and multiplier become extreamly important in determining damage output! It is probably the most important factor of all the "base weapon" attributes. The spiked chain has the worst crit range and lowest crit multiplier possible (20/x2). In this respect it is equivalent to most simple weapons. At high levels where Improved Critical feats and keen weapons are fairly common, so are critical hits.

I've seen the spiked chaing in action and it has never been a problem. It's a viable weapon, but hardly broken.

 

[Lotus]

With a STR bonus of +5, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical, compare these weapons:

Greatsword:
2d6 + 11 (17-20x2) ~~~ 20 * 1.2 = 24 average damage

Falchion:
2d4 + 11 (15-20x2) ~~~ 16 * 1.3 = 20.8 average damage

Spiked Chain:
2d4 + 11 (19-20x2) ~~~ 16 * 1.1 = 17.6 average damage

Rapier:
1d6 + 9 (15-20x2) ~~~ 12.5 * 1.3 = 16.25 average damage

Heavy Mace:
1d8 + 9 (19-20x2) ~~~ 14 * 1.1 = 15.4 average damage

Dagger:
1d4 + 9 (17-20x2) ~~~ 11.5 * 1.2 = 13.8 average damage


As you can see, a spiked chain is actually closer in damage to a dagger than it is to a greatsword.

I'm not denying the tactical power of the spiked chain, but to say it's on par with other serious fighter weapons damage-wise is pretty far out there.


(Edit: I originally said they were +3 and then didn't do the math that way. Here they are

Greatsword:
23 * 1.2 = 27.6 average damage

Falchion:
19 * 1.3 = 24.7 average damage

Spiked Chain:
19 * 1.1 = 20.9 average damage

Rapier:
15.5 * 1.3 = 20.15 average damage

Heavy Mace:
17 * 1.1 = 18.7 average damage

Dagger:
14.5 * 1.2 = 17.4 average damage

 

[Verdigris]

Lotus,

By my calculation, the Chain will have 1/3 as often a chance of dealing damage than a greatsword based purely on its increased threat range, forgetting feats for a moment because feats are customizable in many sorts of ways, and not all characters will have either a +5 bonus or a "improved crit" (which improves the greatswords range twice what it improves the chain).

But granting that your statistics are correct -- even though they favor the greatsword due to the improved crit etc. -- you forget that the "tactical" value of the chain is that it gets an attack 1/3 as often due to its increased threat range, which means it gets AoO opportunities around 1/3 more often than a greatsword.

I've been trying to figure out if that means it deals 1/3 more damage than you have allowed, but the math gets too complicated for my poor abilities because AoOs are not assured and extra feats like Combat Reflexes boost its attack potential into the stratosphere.

Plus it has improved trip etc.

Maybe folks are correct and its not "broken" but I am still convinced that it is far too powerful for something that isn't really a historical weapon. I still think someone at WoC just liked spiked chains a lot and decided to make sure they were awesome.

Good discussion, though.

 

[Kodam]

As I mentioned somewhere above the spiked chain-fighter has to rise 4 stats (Str, Dex, Con and Int). Granted he needs only a 13 in Int but nevertheless. So its just not correct to asume equal Str for the SC wielder and the Greatsword-type. The GS-fighter can concentrate much stronger on Str so that he'll likely have a higher Mod.
And you can reasonably expect to find magical Greatswords. Not so with Spiked Chains? I think thats another balancing factor which gets overlooked in this discussion.

 

[Pielorinho]

Lotus,

By my calculation, the Chain will have 1/3 as often a chance of dealing damage than a greatsword based purely on its increased threat range, forgetting feats for a moment because feats are customizable in many sorts of ways, and not all characters will have either a +5 bonus or a "improved crit" (which improves the greatswords range twice what it improves the chain).

At some point, we have to abandon statistics. The chain doesn't get 1/3 as many AoOs, because people fight differently vs. a chain wielder than they fight vs. a sword wielder. If you see someone is wielding a chain, you wait for them to come to you, or you tumble up to them, or you shoot them, or you pull out your own reach weapon.

The chain does have advantages, true. But the chain monkey in my game, despite consistently having the best magical weapons of any PCs, doesn't own combat.

Daniel

 

[Lotus]

As I mentioned somewhere above the spiked chain-fighter has to rise 4 stats (Str, Dex, Con and Int).

Very true. There are a couple ways to multiclass around the need for INT 13, but they make other compromises.

By my calculation, the Chain will have 1/3 as often a chance of dealing damage than a greatsword

You'll get more AoOs than a greatsword fighter, for sure. Hard to guess how many more though. It really depends on encounters and party tactics. In a typical fight with humanoids, the spiked chain fighter probably comes out ahead. He won't in some encounters even with humanoids; Tumble, Spring Attack, locked gauntlets, steadfast boots, reach weapons, non-disarmable weapons, and Enlarge Person (which works as well on NPCs as PCs) take away advantages.

If you're fighting Large or bigger non-humanoids, the spiked chain has very little to recommend it. You (probably) can't trip it, you (definitely) can't disarm it, reach at best becomes a safety buffer from movement AoOs, and you're not doing optimum damage.

A spiked chain fighter could carry a greatsword for encounters like that, but would have to split specialization feats and enchantment funds between two different weapons.

 

[Darklone]

The Spiked chain wielder might not be too good at dishing out damage, even if we consider additional attacks compared to a greatsword twink and the advantage against archers and wizards.

But IME he gets hit much less than other fighters, even by large creatures with reach. He's actually better at fighting giants and covering his buddies the archers/wizards/clerics. One Spiked chain freak might easily hold 8 lvl5 guys back while his buddy the sorcerer drops bad bad fireballs on them. The hardcore fighters with sword&shield will have to rely on their hitpoints to be a tank, the spiked chain freak can pretty often avoid to get hit at all.

Wizards had a weaponmaster with a polearm on their site some years ago. He had AC 13 because he relied on Spring Attack. It's not a perfect built, but it works.

 

[Camarath]

Uh huh. Let's be precise: The falchion, the longspear (1d8 actually), the Ranseur, and the Guisarme do 2d4 damage. All of them have either x3 crits or, in the case of the falchion 18-20/x2.

You forgot the Scythe and if your counting 1d8 the Lance (which is Two-Handed now unless mounted) and Double Weapons as well. Personally I liked the Lance and Shield with Improved Shield Bash (the old one) combo better than the Spiked Chain but that no longer works in 3.5.

Also the new Power Attack works well with the Spiked Chain.