Rant: WotC can't design their spells "right"

[Testament]

Notice how none of the spells you listed are direct damage? WoTC made a huge mistake in 3.5. By removing Haste and nerfing pretty much every arcane spell there is, they've effectively made arcane spellcasters unviable. Now they're trying to correct their mistakes by trying to enforce their views on how arcane spellcasters should be played. Hence they are producing worthwhile direct damage spells left right and centre. The only worthwhile direct damage spells are those that are least hampered by traditional defences to spells since the ultimate defence to dd spells (hps) the monsters have an abundance off. That is why you're seeing spells like the Orb spells and Blast of Flame type spells. Which incidently is an admission of sorts that they stuffed up with things like Polar Ray and Cone of Cold.

What's this man smoking? Where do I get some?

Removed haste? More like changed it to what it was supposed to dang well be in the first place, a fighter buff, rather than the Wizard God Mode code.

And mate, play after level 12 some time. At that point, everyone's just a meat shield for the spell lobber. And try using metamagic some time, or maybe explore avenues other than blatty death?

 

[coyote6]

I think one way of rationalizing this is that a conjuration spell will conjure up an actual up an actual orb of fire, while an evocation spell will evoke a magical beam of fire.

Does this make sense?

Maybe . . . until you consider the consequences.

If it's actual fire, then it can be stopped by things that stop actual fire, no? So, being soaking wet ought to be worth a few points of effective fire resistance, right? And, unlike fireball, you can't make a Spellcraft check & cast it underwater, right?

And being actual fire, you should be able to throw your fire orb into antimagic fields with no problems, right?

Except, of course, that none of those things are true. So it's like actual fire, except concerning every matter besides Spell Resistance.

In SR, the difference between conjured actual fire, and channeled-through-the-astral-plane type fire are logical, consistent, and matter. But 3.5e doesn't have the metaphysics or rules to match the difference.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Maybe . . . until you consider the consequences.

If it's actual fire, then it can be stopped by things that stop actual fire, no? So, being soaking wet ought to be worth a few points of effective fire resistance, right? And, unlike fireball, you can't make a Spellcraft check & cast it underwater, right?

And being actual fire, you should be able to throw your fire orb into antimagic fields with no problems, right?

Except, of course, that none of those things are true. So it's like actual fire, except concerning every matter besides Spell Resistance.

In SR, the difference between conjured actual fire, and channeled-through-the-astral-plane type fire are logical, consistent, and matter. But 3.5e doesn't have the metaphysics or rules to match the difference.

Exactly, hence my initial suggestion about particular design rules and consistent application of them. You don't need to have two types of energy, one "conjured" and one "evoked". Putting to one side the discussion about whether some energy types are "energy" or a substance, SR should apply to all applications of the five accepted energy types causing direct damage. Whether the spell is Conjuration or Evocation is irrelevant. The SRD description of spell resistance supports this, but then somehow since the SRD was drafted the spell designers in WotC have taken the attitude that Conjuration = no SR, full stop. I don't have a problem with a summoned creature not being affected by SR, or a huge ball of stone conjured from the Elemental Plane of Earth being dropped on a spell-resistant creature not being affected by SR, but when we're comparing apples with apples - fire energy and fire energy, cold energy and cold energy etc. - the same rule should apply no matter what the school of spell.

I hear what others are saying about maybe WotC reviewing the effects of SR and seeking to redcuce it, as they did with DR. That's fine. Since I run a wizard who's p'd off when her big spell fails due to spell resistance, I would like nothing more than to see SR toned down. But how about being up front about the problems with SR as a game mechanic, and fixing them rather than doing something through the back door by creating all these new spells which aren't affected by SR and which, because of that, "have" to be in the Conjuration school. How about simply adjusting everything's SR up by say 2 to 5 points and then adjusting the roll to defeat SR by spell level? Etc.

In short, get some sensible spell design rules, stick to them when designing new spells, and fix SR through another medium than artificially creating a heap of Conjuration spells.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[ZSutherland]

I was in the camp that generally thought, for damage purposes, Conj blew in 3.0. They did have some decent defense and utility spells, but just wasn't a school worth specializing in, really since any cleric can outbuff your average wizard. However, I would have taken a much different tack in correcting the problem in 3.5. I'd have fixed the summoning creature spells.

Summon Monster, imo, should be the bread and butter of conjurers, but as written, they are effectively useless. Oh goody! A spell that requires a full-round to cast, lasts only a round per level and creates a creature at any given level that a commoner with enough levels to cast the spell could probably defeat alone. Yippy skippy!

Calling spells are worse. Hey, I can potentially get a decent creature now, but if I don't want to be torn to shreds, I have to spend time creating an inverted 3rd level spell first, then cross my fingers and hope that a) said creature fails his/her Will save (unlikely since outsiders have good will saves), b) that his/her SR doesn't allow said creature to waltz through my circle of protection, c) that it's not really urgent since the spell alone takes 10 minutes, plus potentially a few days to wear down his mental resistance, and d) that I don't mind potentially creating an extra-planar enemy hell (or heaven) bent on revenge against me. But hey! At least I don't have to expend some nominal amount of exp to avoid all this hassle like those wussy clerics!

BAH! Conjuration wouldn't need a bunch of direct damaging spells that may or may not contradict the spell creation guidelines if conjurers could actually conjure something worth spending a spell slot on.

Z

 

[ShorelisNailo]

Evocers suck...

I have to agree to one thing....EVOkERS Suck....WoTC butchered them...some will say,yeah but scorching ray is really good...3rd edition evoker was THE damage dealer but now...I agree that the core spells lack of imagination and RR1&RR2 in a normal dnd game are greatly broken...But i've found the evoker concept in "battle mage" from encyclopedia arcane ....really powerfull spells,great balancing,very good new ideas,and at last a great system for making a mage who is not afraid of the next battle...Conjuration just don't worth any attetion except if you are using any other supplement and spells...or the DM likes conjurations and u
The most buffed up spell use and high powerd school is transmutation....even necromancy which owned to be powerfull (few do necromancy,risks,every paladin hunts you ) is less powerfull....
.....And some are looking around for balance....hey....in which WoTC there is balance,save for the pages/price matter...?

 

[Voadam]

A metamagicked Fireball or Lightning Bolt is better than Chain Lightning even with the lower DC due to the way the spell functions.

I would respectfully disagree here, Chain lightning is very powerful because you can zap a group in melee with your guys and not hit your guys.

Also one BBEG with a bunch of support is fairly common IME and CL is designed for just such an occurrence.

I love throwing chain lightnings with my eldritch knight.

 

[Voadam]

What's this man smoking? Where do I get some?

Removed haste? More like changed it to what it was supposed to dang well be in the first place, a fighter buff, rather than the Wizard God Mode code.

And mate, play after level 12 some time. At that point, everyone's just a meat shield for the spell lobber. And try using metamagic some time, or maybe explore avenues other than blatty death?

I would have to disagree with you as well. In our 15th level party it is the hand to hand melee monsters who dominate. The spells are mostly useful as buffs, utility, divinations, dispels, and healing. The warriors do big damage much quicker and all day, it is just a matter of how long before they can get into position for a full attack and haul off on the hapless opponents.

 

[glass]

Arcane casters unviable? WHAT?

That was precisely my reaction when I read beaver1024's comment One thing's for sure, he's playing a version of 3.5 that I haven't seen.

I can't speak for beaver1024, but I think the blaster mage that was the staple of 2e is, if not actually unviable, perilously close to it. Of course there are other specialities which are prefectly viable (I find summoner works rather well), but the direct damage spells leave a lot to be desired.


glass.

 

[glass]

I think one way of rationalizing this is that a conjuration spell will conjure up an actual up an actual orb of fire, while an evocation spell will evoke a magical beam of fire.

Maybe . . . until you consider the consequences.

Another consequence is that if conjuration spells create real things that are no longer magical, then those that create physical objects rather than energy should be subject to DR, which as spell effects they currently are not.


glass.

 

[iksander]

Hnnn... I think part of the problem is the type of campaigns people run. In a humancentric campaign were your fighting humans all the time it seems wizards seem to have an upperhand when it comes to nerfing other humanoid classes. You wanna piss somebody off? Cast forcecage (cell), or reverse gravity, etc...on the NPC or PC. Unelss you have the magic bullet against the spell, your kind left hanging and useless.

But if your running a campaign against where outsiders play a significant part...the wizard will start getting frustrated. He has has to deal with tons of SR, energy resistance and/or immunity, good saves abound, on top of the fact that a good chunk of the sneakier spells like forcecage are mitigated by outsider abilities.