Rant: WotC can't design their spells "right"

[Particle_Man]

In one of the campaigns in which I play, wizards and sorcerors suck, even after the DM upped their damage die type (so magic missle does xd6+1, fireballs do xd8, etc.).

In another campaign, almost everyone is a caster, and a multi-classed caster at that. But the DM goes into Care Bear mode for combat, and does a lot of roleplay intrigue and stuff, so it works out.

In my King Arthur campaign, there is a spell point system. I also allowed all the casters to have complete spontaneity. They could cast all spells on their spell list, if they had the points to do it, without memorization or preparation of any kind. They do ok, but they don't dominate in combat more than others (usually they would die without the knights kicking butt and taking names). The spells that proved useful were magic weapon, ability score buffs, haste, web, shield, mage armor, dispel magic (when shield and mage armor were cast by a dragon), invisibility.

Monsters simply have too many hp and too much SR. Damage spells don't work in 3.5 in the campaigns I am in. The meat shields dominate. The casters die. The only way to change that is to have the spells do more damage. Take off the damage caps and double the damage of damage-doing spells, see if that helps.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

I just find it baffling that they don't come up with interesting, actual physical things for conjuration spells to hurl at your foes, rather than just relabelling half of the energy spells as "conjured energy." Fine differences in the theory of how the magic works are not a substitute for actual thematic differences between the spell schools.

 

[Staffan]

Summon Monster, imo, should be the bread and butter of conjurers, but as written, they are effectively useless. Oh goody! A spell that requires a full-round to cast, lasts only a round per level and creates a creature at any given level that a commoner with enough levels to cast the spell could probably defeat alone. Yippy skippy!

I haven't had much experience with summonings at higher levels, but at the lower mid-levels (5-8 or so), summoned monsters can really tear up in a fight. In one of the campaigns I'm in, the cleric's favorite 3rd level spell was Summon Monster III, for the fiendish dire ape.

People tend to forget that a summoned monster isn't just a damage-dealer like a fireball. It also projects a certain control on the battlefield, and it takes quite a bit of damage that would likely otherwise hit you or your allies.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I haven't had much experience with summonings at higher levels, but at the lower mid-levels (5-8 or so), summoned monsters can really tear up in a fight. In one of the campaigns I'm in, the cleric's favorite 3rd level spell was Summon Monster III, for the fiendish dire ape.

People tend to forget that a summoned monster isn't just a damage-dealer like a fireball. It also projects a certain control on the battlefield, and it takes quite a bit of damage that would likely otherwise hit you or your allies.

If it only took a standard action to cast then it would be a decent spell. As a 1 round casting time spell it should be signifigantly more powerful than any other spell of its level. It doesn't come close to that it isn't even more powerful. It may be usful to low level clerics but low level clerics don't exactly have a large list of good attack spells. At mid to high levels your cleric will get good attack spells and SM spells will be ignored.

In my games for wizards 1 round casting time spell should just be renamed power word suicide. Clerics with their armor and Hp can change it to power word waste a round. Spellcasters are already a high priority target especially wizards. Clerics and druids are high priority because there so dang powerful, wiz/sor because there such soft targets its way too easy to drop them in one round. So when any spellcaster starts chanting and dancing around for not a split second but an entire round he just sumoned a flashing arrow over his head with a big sign floting over that reads "Kill Me Now", because you probably don't want to see what happens next. Of course if you regognize it as a SM spell you might ignore them dish out damage this round to a target that is actually a threat.

 

[Particle_Man]

One way around getting targetted is to cast invisibility first, then summon lots of monsters. But that costs an extra spell (or ring slot, if you have a ring).

And hope your enemies don't get lucky with the various invisibility counters.

 

[Saeviomagy]

So when any spellcaster starts chanting and dancing around for not a split second but an entire round he just sumoned a flashing arrow over his head with a big sign floting over that reads "Kill Me Now", because you probably don't want to see what happens next.

Any spellcaster has that anyway. And if things are actually getting to you, then your party is doing a very bad job.

Of course if you recognize it as a SM spell you might ignore them dish out damage this round to a target that is actually a threat.

From what I've seen, SM has been devastatingly effective.

Though I would probably change it such that summoning a monster 1 level lower than your spell always gives 2 creatures, and 2 levels lower always gives 4 creatures.

Currently it's just depressing when you try to summon 1d3 critters and get 1...

 

[beaver1024]

In short, get some sensible spell design rules, stick to them when designing new spells, and fix SR through another medium than artificially creating a heap of Conjuration spells.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

This would mean that WoTC has to admit that they made a huge mistake with 3.5 which will never happen.

The only reason why blaster mages were viable in 3.0 is because of Haste. The problem with 3.0 was that there were too many supplements increasing the DCs of spells to crazy levels. This effect was multiplied because of Haste giving us out of control "head shot" mages. Instead of solving the problem properly WoTC, in their rush to get their hands on your money, nerfed arcane spells left right and centre without proper playtesting. This leaves us with the mages in their present state. Their only useful role in the party is being the support character, the 2e cleric role. Compunding this problem was the notion that mages shouldn't do more damage in a round than a fighter's full attack. Aside from being a completely idiotic assumption in the first place, it's basically another nail in the coffin of blaster mages.

Hence to make mages viable again, WoTC is trying to promote their view on how mages should be played (ie the blaster mage archetype). This has lead to Complete Arcane giving us a proliferation of direct damage spells that is way better than core direct damage spells. In order to make direct damage spells more viable they need to be revised such that they have less impendiment to their use. One of the major impediment is the fact that direct damage spells are affected by all traditional spell defences as well as hitpoints and energy resistances and immunities. Hence now we have the Orb spells and Blast of Flame.

Additionally did you notice that they brought back Haste in the form of Dual Wand Wielder. If that isn't an admission of failure I don't know what is.

 

[Pants]

What's this man smoking? Where do I get some?

Removed haste? More like changed it to what it was supposed to dang well be in the first place, a fighter buff, rather than the Wizard God Mode code.

And mate, play after level 12 some time. At that point, everyone's just a meat shield for the spell lobber. And try using metamagic some time, or maybe explore avenues other than blatty death?

Indeed. Toning down wizards is, IMO, a good thing, but as this thread has shown, people have had many varying experiences with the arcane casters. Personally, I think they're strong.

Maybe . . . until you consider the consequences.

Well, I never said it was a good explanation.
Still, I don't think being wet will help much when a ball of rolling fire impacts on your feet.

I hear what others are saying about maybe WotC reviewing the effects of SR and seeking to redcuce it, as they did with DR. That's fine. Since I run a wizard who's p'd off when her big spell fails due to spell resistance, I would like nothing more than to see SR toned down. But how about being up front about the problems with SR as a game mechanic, and fixing them rather than doing something through the back door by creating all these new spells which aren't affected by SR and which, because of that, "have" to be in the Conjuration school. How about simply adjusting everything's SR up by say 2 to 5 points and then adjusting the roll to defeat SR by spell level? Etc.

SR is incredibly easy to get past nowadays. Look back at the Magic Resistance rules of older editions. Seriously, with a couple of feats and the fact that SR (usually) only applies once per creature in a given encounter, it's not as big a deal as some seem to make it out.

From what I've seen, SM has been devastatingly effective.

Ditto, though, at lower levels, its utility is questionable. Casting a SMI as a 1st level character is wasting a round.

Additionally did you notice that they brought back Haste in the form of Dual Wand Wielder. If that isn't an admission of failure I don't know what is.

It's not, for several reasons:
1) Haste could potentially allow characters to toss two 9th level spells in a round. Bad, bad, bad. Dual Wand Wielder limits the spells to 4th level.
2) Haste is relatively easy to cast. Wands require either money (to buy) or money, a feat, XP, and time (to craft).
3) Dual Wand requires a potentially useless feat for Arcane casters (TWF) and a full round action to utilize.

In short, Dual Wand Wielder is nothing like Haste. At all.

Still, in my experience (which includes running a campaign with a high level blaster wizard), every character can dominate sometimes, but I've personally seen the wizard dominate the most. He didn't use the bext tactics (that award would've gone to the rogue), but he did manage to effectively control most fights with his spell selection. And then, back in 3.0, the wizard demolished EVERYTHING using haste, to the point that I began designing encounters with enemy hasted wizards just to give the other characters a chance to shine.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Any spellcaster has that anyway. And if things are actually getting to you, then your party is doing a very bad job.

From what I've seen, SM has been devastatingly effective.

Though I would probably change it such that summoning a monster 1 level lower than your spell always gives 2 creatures, and 2 levels lower always gives 4 creatures.

Currently it's just depressing when you try to summon 1d3 critters and get 1...

A party can't stop anyone from getting to the mage unless there in really tight quarters. And even then if properly motivated someone can still get to the mage if they are willing to take a couple AoO's.

And from what I've seen, SM is a speed bump when I'm being generous about it. It vary easily can be campaign differences but most summons can be virtually ignored in our games. The few that are slightly dangerous can usually be dropped in an absurdly quick fashion. Which provides a purpose in that the damage is spent on the summon and not a player but cleave usually makes sure the player doesn't get away scot free. And well summoning a lower level creature just makes them that much weaker than they were before. In 3.0 I they were a bit too good with some monsters special abilities but they were spot on in damage dealing power, in 3.5 there weaker in too many ways.

And for the person who pointed it out yes invis helps, but unless your spells are also silent the DC to get a decent idea of where you are is small to pinpoint your location its relatively high but that's what area of effect spells are for. Seriosuly invis is a campaign issue, some its common to overcome others its rare. Though there are still sometimes ways around it like scent, or good listen checks.

 

[beaver1024]

In short, Dual Wand Wielder is nothing like Haste. At all.

It isn't but it's a kludge to fill the void behind by Haste. Just like the Orb spells are a kludge to try to fix WoTC mistakes in 3.5. Unless WoTC fixes the fundamental problems then these kludges ultimately won't fix anything.