Rant: WotC can't design their spells "right"

[Sejs]

See? It's called "defenestrating sphere" and it does not defenestrate! It should hurl people horizontally toward the nearest window, not vertically!

In our games, we've house ruled that the spell creates a window and frame hovering in mid air that lasts long enough for the target to be thrown thru it.

 

[Ferret]

I think before we fiddle with things we should have a definition of what makes a conjouration a conjouration, and an evocation an evocation.

Heres my stab:
Evocation: Calling energy or an effect into being.
Conjouration: Summoning an object, or creating one.

You could Summon the pea sized bead to create a fireball, or you could create the energy. You could create the arrow with acid on it, but no acid, acid is not energy.

I think that all things conjoured should be objects and physical, but all things evoked should be just energy.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I definitely agree that WotC has gone crazy with the no-SR spells that look like evocations but for some indecipherable reason are conjurations. In principle, what's the difference between a 4th level spell that shoots orbs of fire at a target and a 2nd level spell that shoots rays of fire at a target. Nothing. But, according to Complete Arcane, the first is Conjuration while the second is Evocation. Similarly, the difference between a spell that shoots bolts of force that always hit at a target and a spell that shoots orbs of force at a target is.... the one from Complete Arcane is a Conjuration. Idiotic.

However, the core rules do have some very good high level evocations that people either haven't mentioned or undervalued:
4. Otiluke's Reslient Sphere (Hamster ball a bad guy until you want to deal with him--which will usually be after the rest of the battle when he's alone and friendless).
5. Wall of Force. Divide and Conquer
6. Contingency. Nuff Said.
7. Bigby's Grasping Hand. Got Freedom of Movement? If not, grapple with the hand until we kill you. (Absolutely devastating on spellcasters who don't have anti-grapple spells prepped).

 

[Amaroq]

So, Wulf,

I went through many, many man-hours of work doing exactly that.

The fruits of that labor are available in Heroes of High Favor: Elves, as the man said.

Wulf

So, Wulf, when are you going to publish 'Wulf Ratbane's Complete Guide to Magic in the d20 System'?

This is, of course, exactly what I as a DM want: I'm working towards starting a low-magic campaign, and want to 'build out' a magic system for it; I've already bought Grim Tales and have been working with it as a base, but it somewhat ducks the question, basically telling me to do what I'm doing.

I guess what I'm finding is that most-to-all 3rd-party or WotC publications with magical content are shiny new cars, and what I want is a mechanic's handbook.

 

[beaver1024]

It should be noted that we are currently in the middle of the "rebalancing of the spells".

To make specialisation a meaningful choice, Wizards rebalanced the spell lists. However, that rebalancing is not yet complete - there are still holes to be filled.

Hopefully, more Evocation spells will soon be forthcoming.

Cheers!

What does this mean really? That 3.5 was a complete dog's breakfast and that it wasn't playtested at all? Would they do us a curtesy of issuing a completely rebalanced errata or would that be too much.

I'm presupposing that once the spells are "rebalanced" we'll get more crappy spells like Swim or Polar Ray right? Additionally we'd have to buy DnD 4.0 to get that right? To "fix" what was wrong with 3.5?

 

[beaver1024]

I definitely agree that WotC has gone crazy with the no-SR spells that look like evocations but for some indecipherable reason are conjurations. In principle, what's the difference between a 4th level spell that shoots orbs of fire at a target and a 2nd level spell that shoots rays of fire at a target. Nothing. But, according to Complete Arcane, the first is Conjuration while the second is Evocation. Similarly, the difference between a spell that shoots bolts of force that always hit at a target and a spell that shoots orbs of force at a target is.... the one from Complete Arcane is a Conjuration. Idiotic.

However, the core rules do have some very good high level evocations that people either haven't mentioned or undervalued:
4. Otiluke's Reslient Sphere (Hamster ball a bad guy until you want to deal with him--which will usually be after the rest of the battle when he's alone and friendless).
5. Wall of Force. Divide and Conquer
6. Contingency. Nuff Said.
7. Bigby's Grasping Hand. Got Freedom of Movement? If not, grapple with the hand until we kill you. (Absolutely devastating on spellcasters who don't have anti-grapple spells prepped).

Notice how none of the spells you listed are direct damage? WoTC made a huge mistake in 3.5. By removing Haste and nerfing pretty much every arcane spell there is, they've effectively made arcane spellcasters unviable. Now they're trying to correct their mistakes by trying to enforce their views on how arcane spellcasters should be played. Hence they are producing worthwhile direct damage spells left right and centre. The only worthwhile direct damage spells are those that are least hampered by traditional defences to spells since the ultimate defence to dd spells (hps) the monsters have an abundance off. That is why you're seeing spells like the Orb spells and Blast of Flame type spells. Which incidently is an admission of sorts that they stuffed up with things like Polar Ray and Cone of Cold.

 

[MerricB]

What does this mean really? That 3.5 was a complete dog's breakfast and that it wasn't playtested at all?

Hardly. Most 3.5E spells hold up quite well. The problem is actually a legacy one - damage-dealing spells above 3rd level in previous editions were hopeless.

For damage-dealing spells, traditionally the only ones that have mattered have been Magic Missile and Fireball. Especially in 1E, where they didn't have damage caps (and spells like Burning Hands were incredibly underpowered).

Once we get to the higher levels, we slowly start getting better spells, but I'd say the core damage-dealing spells are:
* Magic Missile
* Fireball
* Chain Lightning
* Delayed Blast Fireball
* Meteor Swarm

Consider the list of ranged damage-dealing spells in core D&D:
1st: burning hands; 1d4/level (max 5d4); Reflex half; 15' cone; SR
1st: magic missile; 1d4+1/2 levels (max 5d4+5); Medium; SR
2nd: Melf's acid arrow: 2d4/3 levels; ranged touch; Long; no SR
2nd: Flaming Sphere: 2d6/round, Reflex negates; Medium; SR
2nd: Scorching Ray: 4d6 (+4d6/4 levels, max 12d6); ranged touch; Short; SR
3rd: Fireball: 1d6/level (max 10d6); Reflex half; Long; 20' radius; SR
3rd: Lightning Bolt: 1d6/level (max 10d6); Reflex half; 60' line; SR
5th: Ice Storm: 5d6; no save; 20' radius; Long; SR
5th: Shout: 5d6; Fort half; 30' cone; SR
5th: Cone of Cold: 1d6/level (max 15d6); Reflex half; 60' cone; SR
6th: Chain Lightning; 1d6/level (max 20d6); Reflex half; secondary targets (1/level, half-damage); Long; SR
6th: Otiluke's Freezing Sphere; 1d6/level (max 15d6); Reflex half; Long; 10' radius; SR
7th: Delayed Blast Fireball; 1d6/level (max 20d6); Reflex half; Long; 20' radius; SR
8th: Polar Ray; 1d6/level (max 25d6); ranged touch; Short; 1 target; SR
8th: Shout, Greater; 10d6; Fort half; 60' cone; SR
8th: Sunburst; 6d6; Ref half; 80' burst; Long; SR
8th: Horrid Wilting: 1d6/level (max 20d6); Long; creatures with 60' of each other; Fort half; SR
9th: Meteor Swarm: 24d6; Ref half (or 32d6, ranged touch, no save); Long; SR

Cheers!

 

[Pants]

I definitely agree that WotC has gone crazy with the no-SR spells that look like evocations but for some indecipherable reason are conjurations. In principle, what's the difference between a 4th level spell that shoots orbs of fire at a target and a 2nd level spell that shoots rays of fire at a target. Nothing. But, according to Complete Arcane, the first is Conjuration while the second is Evocation. Similarly, the difference between a spell that shoots bolts of force that always hit at a target and a spell that shoots orbs of force at a target is.... the one from Complete Arcane is a Conjuration. Idiotic.

I think one way of rationalizing this is that a conjuration spell will conjure up an actual up an actual orb of fire, while an evocation spell will evoke a magical beam of fire.

Does this make sense? I think it does, but I'm not sure I agree with the addition of more direct damage spells to the Conjuration school. The Orb spells worked better in Evocation, IMO.

Notice how none of the spells you listed are direct damage? WoTC made a huge mistake in 3.5. By removing Haste and nerfing pretty much every arcane spell there is, they've effectively made arcane spellcasters unviable.

Arcane casters unviable?

WHAT?

 

[Celtavian]

Hardly. Most 3.5E spells hold up quite well. The problem is actually a legacy one - damage-dealing spells above 3rd level in previous editions were hopeless.

For damage-dealing spells, traditionally the only ones that have mattered have been Magic Missile and Fireball. Especially in 1E, where they didn't have damage caps (and spells like Burning Hands were incredibly underpowered).

Once we get to the higher levels, we slowly start getting better spells, but I'd say the core damage-dealing spells are:
* Magic Missile
* Fireball
* Chain Lightning
* Delayed Blast Fireball
* Meteor Swarm


Cheers!

I would nix Meteor Swarm and Chain Lightning as oft used damaging spells at higher. Because of the way energy resistance works, those Meteor Swarm is not as effective as Horrid Wilting. In fact, Meteor Swarm can do less than a Fireball if the creature has any kind of fire resistance. A metamagicked Fireball or Lightning Bolt is better than Chain Lightning even with the lower DC due to the way the spell functions.

Evokers are not very strong in third edition save against hordes of small guys. Against high level monsters with magic and resistances, they are fairly weak.

 

[shilsen]

Arcane casters unviable?

WHAT?

That was precisely my reaction when I read beaver1024's comment One thing's for sure, he's playing a version of 3.5 that I haven't seen.