Rapid shot and Manyshot combined?

[Goblyn]

I run 3.5 and one player's ranger has these two feats. I let him combine them, but I have a feeling they aren't supposed to be able to be though I cannot pin down any specifically restrictive wording.

It hasn't 'broken' the game or anything, I'm just curious as to what my fellow ENWorlders think.

Here's the crunch:

He's level 7. As a full round action, he makes three attack rolls loosing four arrows. The first attack is the manyshot(2 arrows) made at -6; attack #2 is at -2 and attack #3 is at -2 but also 5 less BAB as it is his iterative attack.

So, what do you think? Ok as per RAW or Cardinal sin for which I will smoke a turd in purgatory?

Edit: Stupidity on my part. Fixed now.

 

[Fortain]

I'm trying to remember what Multishot does, but it's not coming to me atm. In any event, Manyshot can't be used as part of a full-attack, because it uses a standard action, not attack action. Manyshot is used when you want to get in a full-attack, but also want to use a move action that round as well. For example, you can't have an archer Manyshot for each attack in their full-attack (or for any of them), because of the amount of time it takes to load more than one arrow, aim them all, then fire them at the same time.

 

[Iku Rex]

I'm not sure what you mean by "Multishot". If it's Rapid Shot, this thread might be of help:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?p=3076476#post3076476 (Note: When Thurbane says "Multi Shot" he means Manyshot.)

 

[Goblyn]

I'm not sure what you mean by "Multishot". If it's Rapid Shot, this thread might be of help:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?p=3076476#post3076476 (Note: When Thurbane says "Multi Shot" he means Manyshot.)

You're right. I've fixed it now; thanks for the link.

 

[Xath]

I'm trying to remember what Multishot does, but it's not coming to me atm. In any event, Manyshot can't be used as part of a full-attack, because it uses a standard action, not attack action. Manyshot is used when you want to get in a full-attack, but also want to use a move action that round as well. For example, you can't have an archer Manyshot for each attack in their full-attack (or for any of them), because of the amount of time it takes to load more than one arrow, aim them all, then fire them at the same time.

Ditto. Though I've played with GMs who allow both ways, and neither has seemed to be a game breaker.

 

[MarkB]

Rapid Shot can only be used as part of a full attack action.

Manyshot can only be used as a standard action.

This makes them impossible to use at the same time.

 

[kenobi65]

Rapid Shot can only be used as part of a full attack action.

Manyshot can only be used as a standard action.

This makes them impossible to use at the same time.

Yup. By the RAW, they cannot be used together.

At higher levels, when the archer would be getting additional shots due to high BAB anyway, Manyshot then allows more arrows, as well. Do you really want that 11th level archer (assuming a fighter-type with full BAB progression) firing 6 arrows a round? (3 due to BAB, plus 1 more for Rapid Shot, plus 2 more for Manyshot)?

 

[Thurbane]

Rapid Shot can only be used as part of a full attack action.

Manyshot can only be used as a standard action.

This makes them impossible to use at the same time.

A single attack is also a standard action, yet it can be used with Rapid Shot. This was the primary cause of this exact question cropping up in my own game.

My player was of the opinion that once any attack becomes part of RS, it ceases to be a standard action in and of itself, and becomes part of the full round action that is Rapid Shot.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A single attack is also a standard action, yet it can be used with Rapid Shot.

The Attack action is a standard action, during which you can make a single attack. The attack itself isn't a standard action; attacks appear as part of the standard actions Attack, Sunder, and Manyshot; the full round actions Charge and Full Attack; and even the non-action Attack of Opportunity.

In an Attack action, you can make an attack. In a Full Attack action, you can make potentially several attacks. The Attack action is the standard action; the attack itself is not. In the Full Attack action, you are taking one full round action, not multiple standard actions.

Using Manyshot requires a standard action. A Full Attack allows multiple attacks; it does not allow multiple Manyshot standard actions.

-Hyp.

 

[Goblyn]

Using Manyshot requires a standard action. A Full Attack allows multiple attacks; it does not allow multiple Manyshot standard actions.

-Hyp.

True. The logic I had used(knowingly erronneously) was thus: while choosing a full attack action, after completing the first attack, a character may choose to take a move action in place of the rest of its attacks. This quite arguably implies that a full attack action is composed of a standard action(the first attack) and a move action(all additional attacks). From that idea one could think that special attacks which use a standard action would use that first attack.

I know that per RAW it is wrong, but it was fun to let him do that.