D&D 5E rapier+dagger and/or longsword+dagger?

Why? Finesse is relative to weapons that don't have it. All it means is you can use your choice of strength or dexterity. Certainly a basket-hilted sword is more gracile and delicate, and more suited for use with dex, than a longsword.
Actually it takes a greater amount of strength to effectively use a historical Rapier than Longsword. The Longsword blade isn't much longer but the increased moment that two hands upon the long hilt can exert means that it requires much less strength to control than the rapier of basket-hilted broadsword, where similar amount of leverage has to be exerted with just a single hand - particularly if your opponent is not also using a rapier. Athleticism is also extremely useful in the added movement of the rapier-fencing style.
This isn't saying Longswords should also be finesse: although less strength is required, the greater the leverage that you can exert, the faster your sword accelerates into a dangerous blow, adjusts direction mid-swing and the harder it hits, the more chance you have of hitting in D&D style combat.
Hence why I have trouble visualising weapons like the Scottish broadsword as finesse.

I hadn't looked into the use of the cloak as a main-gauche when I posted earlier, but it seems we're talking about a parry whether you're using a dagger, a buckler, or a cloak, so I wouldn't necessarily see it as a refluffed shield, but rather as a reaction that only battlemasters can take.
The purpose of them when used in a defensive manner is the same as a shield: to intercept blows before they hit you. They are just generally less effective at it.
The advantages are that its more socially acceptable to walk around town with a cape, or a dagger alongside your sword, than carrying a military shield.
The issue with talking about Battlemaster maneuvers is that that is only one subclass of one of the options that the OP was considering. Much of the current discussion is regarding Rogues for example.

I like how the battlemaster's parry maneuver gets around this issue by reducing damage rather than contributing to AC. With the maneuver, it doesn't matter if you're using a main-gauche, your main weapon, or a table leg to parry the blow. Of course a battlemaster would be proficient with shields regardless.
Again, what if they're not a Battlemaster?
 

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I like how the movies handle swashbucklers: the off hand isn't so much used to wield a shield or a main gauche as to interact with the environment, be it toppling a candle-holder, swinging from a chandelier, throwing a curtain over a mook, etc. I'm thinking that this type of swashbuckler might be better as a Rogue archetype, with all these actions based off the Rogue's Cunning Action ability.
 

Actually it takes a greater amount of strength to effectively use a historical Rapier than Longsword. The Longsword blade isn't much longer but the increased moment that two hands upon the long hilt can exert means that it requires much less strength to control than the rapier of basket-hilted broadsword, where similar amount of leverage has to be exerted with just a single hand - particularly if your opponent is not also using a rapier. Athleticism is also extremely useful in the added movement of the rapier-fencing style.
This isn't saying Longswords should also be finesse: although less strength is required, the greater the leverage that you can exert, the faster your sword accelerates into a dangerous blow, adjusts direction mid-swing and the harder it hits, the more chance you have of hitting in D&D style combat.
Hence why I have trouble visualising weapons like the Scottish broadsword as finesse.

You're contrasting two-handed longsword use with one-handed rapier use. Concluding that the longsword requires less strength doesn't seem right to me considering how common one-handed use of the longsword is. You also seem to be saying you don't think the rapier should have finesse either. Is that correct?

The purpose of them when used in a defensive manner is the same as a shield: to intercept blows before they hit you. They are just generally less effective at it.

Less effective than a shield, in D&D terms, is contributing 0 to AC. I believe the assumption is characters are parrying and acting defensively whenever possible, whether that's with their weapon, an armored forearm, or some other object. All such actions are subsumed into the combat matrix, represented by attacks against AC or hit point loss, UNLESS you have an additional class feature like the Battlemaster's parry maneuver.

The advantages are that its more socially acceptable to walk around town with a cape, or a dagger alongside your sword, than carrying a military shield.

So, a roleplaying advantage. Perhaps that offsets the loss of +2 to AC.

The issue with talking about Battlemaster maneuvers is that that is only one subclass of one of the options that the OP was considering. Much of the current discussion is regarding Rogues for example.

To be fair, the OP said nothing about a mechanically effective parrying ability being a part of the player's character concept. Nevertheless the issue was broached, I believe, because there's a feeling that a character should get some mechanical benefit for giving up a free hand. The parry maneuver doesn't require a free hand, but it does use up your reaction and a superiority die. Defensive Duelist is similar in that you use your reaction to add your proficiency to your AC. With Dual Wielder, in contrast, you give up a free hand to get a +1 to AC. This also comes closest to the OP's character concept because it lets you use weapons that aren't light.

Again, what if they're not a Battlemaster?


There are several options if you want a mechanical benefit. Alternatively, as I've already said, you can describe any character as parrying a blow, whether the attack is a hit or a miss. You don't actually need this to be framed by the rules for it to be part of your character concept.
 

I have a player that wants to run a fighter/rogue type (basically a Three musketeer like character) that wields either a rapier and dagger or a long sword and dagger.

I don't really see an issue with balance as the weapons are 1d8 and 1d4 VS 1d6 so its a wash damage wise... But going strictly RAW it can't be done without taking a feat. I am leaning towards allowing it without the feat, for just those two weapon combos.


I am asking for any ideas or reasons that it would be a bad idea. Mechanically he has not decided yet between fighter or rogue.

Why doesn't your player simply take the Dual Wielder feat? It was included as an option specifically to enable two-weapon fighting with weapons that aren't light.
 

You're contrasting two-handed longsword use with one-handed rapier use. Concluding that the longsword requires less strength doesn't seem right to me considering how common one-handed use of the longsword is. You also seem to be saying you don't think the rapier should have finesse either. Is that correct?
Sorry. I should have specified historical longsword, not the D&D one. I generally think of the D&D rapiers as being similar to the long whippy foils used in many older film fencing scenes, and I'm aware of why finesse exists as a game mechanic.
Its just the actual sabres and the basket-hilted broadswords that you mentioned earlier as finesse weapons that make me a little twitchy. :-S



Less effective than a shield, in D&D terms, is contributing 0 to AC. I believe the assumption is characters are parrying and acting defensively whenever possible, whether that's with their weapon, an armored forearm, or some other object. All such actions are subsumed into the combat matrix, represented by attacks against AC or hit point loss, UNLESS you have an additional class feature like the Battlemaster's parry maneuver.
Yep. As long as the character is proficient in shields, using a reinforced cloak or similar should give the the AC benefit. I was just disagreeing with the need to use a different, subclass-specific mechanic rather than the existing + to AC as per a shield. I don't thing 5th ed is granular enough to make it worth trying to model their performance compared to actual shields.
 

Why doesn't your player simply take the Dual Wielder feat? It was included as an option specifically to enable two-weapon fighting with weapons that aren't light.
Because there is no non-roleplaying reason to use longsword/rapier & dagger. If you take the feat, you're better off using 2 Longswords or 2 Rapiers. Since there are several traditional fighting styles that use 1 non-light and 1 light weapon, it's disappointing that 5E doesn't have a good mechanical option for that.
 

Originally I was going to house rule this myself. But I decided that the feat as written would separate the PC and others who are actually trained in its use as being something better than others.

For those who might say it was a common fighting technique, I agree, but since humans potentially gain a feat at 1st level, it's easy to have a region where a lot of people have learned the technique.

Ilbranteloth
 

Hiya!

I didn't read every post, but...why don't you just make a "Light Rapier"? Or "Fencing Longsword"? Same as Rapier or Longsword, but does d6 and is "Light". No need for anything else. It's not like every single longsword made throughout the entire world was exactly the same... just look at pictures of what is called a "longsword" and "rapier". A "Longsword" can basically range from 33" to 43" blade, and weigh 2.5 lb to 4 lb. Quite the range. "Light Longsword: 33 inch blade, 2.5lb, d6 slashing, Light". Done.

Don't bother with requiring a feat or having to come up with a whole new archtype or whatever, just 'make' a new weapon that everyone can use. No worries about some future spell, ability, feat (if you use them), etc "power-building" some munchkin monstrosity because the 'advantage' of this swashbuckling character isn't based on that; it's based on having the right weapon for the right job.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

Because there is no non-roleplaying reason to use longsword/rapier & dagger. If you take the feat, you're better off using 2 Longswords or 2 Rapiers. Since there are several traditional fighting styles that use 1 non-light and 1 light weapon, it's disappointing that 5E doesn't have a good mechanical option for that.

But isn't that just a matter of style anyway? It may be traditional, but is it so much more effective than just using the non-light weapon by itself that it needs to provide a mechanical benefit? The OP said the player wants to wield both weapons. The feat is the way the rules let you do that. If you don't want the feat, there's nothing preventing you from attacking with a longsword while holding a dagger in your other hand and saying you're using it to parry. It really does belong in the realm of a roleplaying choice.
 
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But isn't that just a matter of style anyway? It may be traditional, but is it so much more effective than just using the non-light weapon by itself that it needs to provide a mechanical benefit? The OP said the player wants to wield both weapons. The feat is the way the rules let you do that. If you don't want the feat, there's nothing preventing you from attacking with a longsword while holding a dagger in your other hand and saying you're using it to parry. It really does belong in the realm of a roleplaying choice.
Not really. Something they've tried hard to do for 5E is take away system mastery, where there are trap options. Because there is no option for this tradition/historical fighting style, you must choose to deal 1-2 less damage per round (or have 2 less AC) for "roleplaying" reasons. This is counter to the previously stated goal, so several of us of have come up with optional rules to fix the problem.

The OP was asking for mechanical reasons why allowing this optional rule would be a bad idea, not why the player should not take the feat (which could be because they're only level 1).
 

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