Rare Magical Item Preview - Holy Avenger

[renau1g]

These are problems with the DM. The DM should be placing items that the players would be happy with. If there were no wizard/invoker/artificer/whatever in the group, then a staff is useless. Better to be a pact blade, or maybe a rod of some sort for you.

Same thing with the warlord. Why didn't the DM place a weapon that could be used by the warlord?

The DM's job is to help facilitate the enjoyment of the players. Part of that is making sure they get useful and meaningful magic items. Just pulling random things out of the books shows both a lack of forethought and a lack of caring on the part of the DM.

It may also be more old-school thinking than the last two items there, it does stretch the amount I need to suspend my disbelief that every time our group plunders a tomb, defeats enemies, etc, etc, there just happens to be all these items from our wish lists. Is it nice to receive all the items you wish? Sure, but, while I don't really like the random distribution, it is a bit more "realistic".

 

[RLBURNSIDE]

I concur this item sucks big time. I hate daily item powers, especially ones that are very "blah". I play a hybrid paladin, and I wouldn't consider this a worthwhile capstone item. Sure, 1d10 extra radiant damage is a good thing, when you're using radiant powers! not all paladin powers are radiant keyword, are they. = fail.

This sword should give a boost to your divine sanction, some kind of aura of fearlessness, and make all your attacks radiant via the +1d10 damage all the time. That would be something. Compare 1d10 at epic to 3d6 from a dragonborn being bloodied using a battlecrazed weapon and a blood lust weapon. Extra radiant damage should be at-will, for this to be worthy.

That said, if I do Bless Weapon on it, do my non-paladin or non-radiant powers gain the radiant keyword? I think in a recent rules change, it specifies that it does. So, a twin-striking paladin with a blessed double-ax holy avenger could do some damage. But that's a lot of ifffffs.

The daily should be wayyyy better, too. Adding "Rare" keyword doesn't turn a toad into a prince you know? It doesn't manufacture desire for this item, unless you're one of those people who are swayed by late night infomercials (for a limited time!! only)_

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

so instead of dispel magic you get a +5 to all defenses... for a daily it could have gone on a little more....

I thought the 3.x version used to project a Protection from Evil effect. Or am I thinking of the Holy Sword prayer?

It may also be more old-school thinking than the last two items there, it does stretch the amount I need to suspend my disbelief that every time our group plunders a tomb, defeats enemies, etc, etc, there just happens to be all these items from our wish lists. Is it nice to receive all the items you wish? Sure, but, while I don't really like the random distribution, it is a bit more "realistic".

Aren't wishlists a metagame construct that the characters wouldn't know about? Magic items in stories are never placed randomly anyway.

I concur this item sucks big time. I hate daily item powers, especially ones that are very "blah". I play a hybrid paladin, and I wouldn't consider this a worthwhile capstone item. Sure, 1d10 extra radiant damage is a good thing, when you're using radiant powers! not all paladin powers are radiant keyword, are they. = fail.

I think an item that gives you +1d10 damage all the time would be plenty overpowered. IMO, it would be cooler if it added that damage to your marking ability though (note that monsters can ignore the mark and just take the damage, but this would give them more reasons to "stick" to the paladin).

 

[DracoSuave]

I don't recall anything about the change to magic items implying there'd be a huge power creep or change in philosophy to how magic items are to affect a character.

It's just a reprint.

 

[Mirtek]

Is it just me or is there actually nothing new at all about the Holy Avenger? That's the very same magic item that we had in PHB1 since day 1 of 4e only that it's now called rare.

I list what I find wrong with it in the OP. It doesn't bash evil-doers, it bashes everything. That's one point of flavor that's missing.

That's because in 4e holy simply refers to originate from the divine. A CE paladin of Gruumsh may wield it just as rightly as a LG palading of Bahamut

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

I don't recall anything about the change to magic items implying there'd be a huge power creep or change in philosophy to how magic items are to affect a character.

Actually, there was this article by Mike Mearls:
(bolded for emphasis)

Rare items allow us to create a category of treasures that are clearly more powerful without simply forcing them to a higher level of play. For example, a flame-tongue longsword that can hurl bolts of fire at will is more powerful than a resounding weapon that dazes an enemy once per day. However, both weapons’ enhancement bonuses determine where they sit within the grand scheme of levels. A +1 flame-tongue longsword must sit somewhere between levels 1 and 5. Above that point, its enhancement bonus is too low to keep up with other weapons, even if it has a nifty activated ability.

By introducing rare items, we can allow those two weapons to sit near each other in terms of level.

So, what does mean if a magic item is rare?

First, the rules assume that the DM hands out one rare item per character per tier. Rare items are meant to be character-defining, powerful objects that help forge the character’s identity in the world. If you find a flame-tongue weapon, you’ve uncovered an important, powerful blade. Since the characters won’t have many of these items, they can be more complicated in terms of type and number of powers.

To me that does say "power creep". Judging from the now-rare holy avenger, this doesn't appear to be the case, though. It rather looks like the holy avenger is the upper limit to the power level of epic rare items, IMO.

 

[Mirtek]

It rather looks like the holy avenger is the upper limit to the power level of epic rare items, IMO.

If that were the case they would have a problem, because this "upper rare limit" is already bordered by the "standard uncommon item". So there's no room to make a rare weaker than this unless it's OK to be weaker than some uncommons and even commons.

Seems more likely that they had no new rare item ready to present and thus simply picked a random iconic item no matter that it happened to be in it's unchanged PHB1 incarnation

 

[RLBURNSIDE]

..

I think an item that gives you +1d10 damage all the time would be plenty overpowered. IMO, it would be cooler if it added that damage to your marking ability though (note that monsters can ignore the mark and just take the damage, but this would give them more reasons to "stick" to the paladin).

boosting a paladin's stickiness, allowing him to fulfill his role at defender, would be a much better way to make the Avenger a *must have*. Maybe make the 1d10 extra radiant damage on divine challenge damage, and just turn all regular attacks into radiant to make the paladin a radiant machine.

Radiant damage all the time is a good thing for paladins. That also boosts their "role". Why add 1d10 extra radiant damage on already-radiant powers? The sword makes it imperative to only select radiant-keyword powers, not all of which are the optimum choices for all types of paladins.

sword==fail

That evil paladin of grummsh should be doing necrotic damage instead of Radiant, IMO. but that's probably just me being all anti-undead damage type. Radiant != Good, Necrotic != Evil. Would have been more thematic had they done that instead. Evil paladins of evil gods do necrotic damage with all their powers, while the goodies do radiant. The neutral ones could chose either, perhaps. // just the way I would have done it, personally

 

[Stalker0]

Another meh vote here.

I want rare items to be awesome. I want them to have at wills and encounter powers and dailies that last the whole fight and mean something!

I basically want a mini artifact...to me that's what rare is.

An artifact = only one.
Rare - only a few.

 

[DracoSuave]

Who cares of the holy avenger isn't a 'makes the defender a better defender' weapon.

It's not a paladin-only weapon.

A warpriest of sun would pick this guy up in a -cold- second.

I'm certain there are other classes *cough avenger* who might do the same.

To me that does say "power creep". Judging from the now-rare holy avenger, this doesn't appear to be the case, though. It rather looks like the holy avenger is the upper limit to the power level of epic rare items, IMO.

It fits what Mike Mearls said perfectly. A holy avenger IS more powerful and complicated than, say, a vicious weapon, or for that matter, a flaming weapon. The thing does extra damage, raises defenses, is also an implemnt, the weapon is useful to MANY classes (I really wish you guys would stop spewing out 'Paladin' for this weapon ignoring the fact clerics can radiant servant this thing to awesometown).

It's not an artifact... but it's pretty damn meaty with what it can do.

Seriously... 'rare magic items' is not a game rule set in place so that 4th edition's 'the character is the source of power, not the items' can be ignored. It's too central to the game design.