Rare Magical Item Preview - Holy Avenger

[Peraion Graufalke]

If that were the case they would have a problem, because this "upper rare limit" is already bordered by the "standard uncommon item". So there's no room to make a rare weaker than this unless it's OK to be weaker than some uncommons and even commons.

Looking at the magic weapons list in the CB, the holy avenger is the strongest weapon enchantment for level 30 by far. See also DracoSuave's previous reply.

 

[Mirtek]

Looking at the magic weapons list in the CB, the holy avenger is the strongest weapon enchantment for level 30 by far. See also DracoSuave's previous reply.

The only thing it has going for it is the +1d10, everything else is not worth mentioning.

+1d6s as crit damage? You got to be kidding.
Can be used as a divine implement? So can other weapons, heroic tier weaons actually
A daily? That unfortunately is part of 4e's tradition of boring dailies not worth a damn.

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

We obviously have different viewpoints on what constitutes a strong enchantment.

That said, the holy avenger's crits add radiant damage and allow you to spend a healing surge. (Enchantments that only add d6's to crits are quite common, btw; adamantine and vorpal weapons are the exceptions.)

Functioning as an implement is not that rare as you pointed out, but it allows you to use the holy avenger's properties if you want to. Extra radiant damage on implement attacks, plus what I mentioned above on a crit? That's pretty good in my book.

The daily power is just icing on the cake, and it's a very strong daily power IMO. Seriously, +5 Fort/Ref/Will for the whole party not worth it, even if only for 1 round?

 

[Mirtek]

We obviously have different viewpoints on what constitutes a strong enchantment.

Seems so.

That said, the holy avenger's crits add radiant damage

Unreliably without regard if you might need it or if it currently does nothing at all.

and allow you to spend a healing surge.

Once again unreliably and likely often when you don't really need it and often failing to trigger when you could use it.

Enchantments that only add d6's to crits are quite common,

But they usually make up for it by having powers that are actually usefull, e.g. changing damage type when you want/need it instead of when the dice fall lucky.

The daily power is just icing on the cake, and it's a very strong daily power IMO. Seriously, +5 Fort/Ref/Will for the whole party not worth it, even if only for 1 round?

It's right along 4e's proud tradition of epic dailies figuratively doing "Daily: Your glove of epic cosmic allows you to scratch your nose"

The HA is nice for someone loaded with radiant powers anyway to get the property, anyone else can find much better weapons

 

[LightPhoenix]

It may also be more old-school thinking than the last two items there, it does stretch the amount I need to suspend my disbelief that every time our group plunders a tomb, defeats enemies, etc, etc, there just happens to be all these items from our wish lists. Is it nice to receive all the items you wish? Sure, but, while I don't really like the random distribution, it is a bit more "realistic".

I agree. However, when I do this, I also try not to be a jerk. I'd give the PCs ample opportunity to "convert" items or craft their own. For example, a player of mine wanted a Heroic-tier Healer's Sash, so I made one up. However, it didn't make sense for evil people to use it, so I made it steal life instead and dropped hints the Avenger could purify it. That makes more sense organically than the PCs finding everything they need.

 

[Marshall]

We obviously have different viewpoints on what constitutes a strong enchantment.

That said, the holy avenger's crits add radiant damage and allow you to spend a healing surge. (Enchantments that only add d6's to crits are quite common, btw; adamantine and vorpal weapons are the exceptions.)

Functioning as an implement is not that rare as you pointed out, but it allows you to use the holy avenger's properties if you want to. Extra radiant damage on implement attacks, plus what I mentioned above on a crit? That's pretty good in my book.

The daily power is just icing on the cake, and it's a very strong daily power IMO. Seriously, +5 Fort/Ref/Will for the whole party not worth it, even if only for 1 round?

Holy Avenger is the 4th best -Radiant Damage- weapon at 30th level.
Its a piss-poor example of what a Rare should be.

Not to mention that Mearls is on crack when he says a Flame Tongue weapon is rare also.

 

[Aspeon]

Someone posted the Staff of the Magi DM Kit stats in another thread, which looked a lot more like what I'd want a Rare item to be. Off the top of my head, +enhancement to Arcana, auto-success Dispel Magic as an encounter power, and recover an encounter power as a daily, or something like that.

The rule of thumb seems to be property = Common, daily power = Uncommon, property + daily power = Rare. If I were running with item rarities, I'd probably use/houserule Rares that have both a daily power I'd expect to see on its own as an Uncommon item and a property I'd expect to see on its own on a Common. (And scaling for at least one enhancement bonus, and using skill challenges/conditions to discover the powers, but now we're getting further into houserule territory)

 

[DracoSuave]

Seems so.
Unreliably without regard if you might need it or if it currently does nothing at all.
Once again unreliably and likely often when you don't really need it and often failing to trigger when you could use it.

You clearly don't give the holy avenger to someone who has the majority of his attacks deal non-radiant damage. Someone whose attacks deal radiant damage won't have their attacks changed by this, and likely won't want to. They're already dealing radiant damage.

But they usually make up for it by having powers that are actually usefull, e.g. changing damage type when you want/need it instead of when the dice fall lucky.

Twin Strike with this + Crusader's Weapon. That's damage country.

It's right along 4e's proud tradition of epic dailies figuratively doing "Daily: Your glove of epic cosmic allows you to scratch your nose"

I'm certain if you have no understanding of how the game works a power that gives you extra defenses for a turn is absolutely terrible. This weapon would be terrible in groups that believe leaders who do nothing but heal are the best.

Sadly, the game works that bonuses to defenses are good. First turn against a dragon? Most of them breath and then do their fear aura thing. Yes, sir, +5 to defenses is good.

The HA is nice for someone loaded with radiant powers anyway to get the property, anyone else can find much better weapons

No one is arguing this point. It's a weapon that is -extremely- powerful for the type of character loaded down with radiant attacks. But if you're claiming it's a bad rare weapon because it's not useful for every character ever, your argument is stupid. Staff of the Magi is useless for most defenders. All tomes are bad for all non-wizards. Totemic Club is useless for rangers.

That doesn't make the item bad. For the intended character: A heavy user of radiant attacks (which is not always 'paladin') it is a damn good weapon.

 

[fuzzlewump]

It fits what Mike Mearls said perfectly. A holy avenger IS more powerful and complicated than, say, a vicious weapon, or for that matter, a flaming weapon. The thing does extra damage, raises defenses, is also an implemnt, the weapon is useful to MANY classes (I really wish you guys would stop spewing out 'Paladin' for this weapon ignoring the fact clerics can radiant servant this thing to awesometown).

It's not an artifact... but it's pretty damn meaty with what it can do.

Seriously... 'rare magic items' is not a game rule set in place so that 4th edition's 'the character is the source of power, not the items' can be ignored. It's too central to the game design.

I disagree that it fits what Mike Mearls said perfectly. I cut his article into portions I think contradict your statements, and bolded particularly interesting points.

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Magic Item Rarity)

One of the consistent pieces of feedback we’ve received about the Dungeons & Dragons game concerns magic items. Many players and DMs have told us that while plenty of the items in the game are treasures worth risking a character’s life and limb for, the most powerful items felt a little flat.

...

In looking over feedback and inspecting the game, we came to the conclusion that we wanted to add a broader variety of items to the game. A magical sword that unleashes bolts of lightning on command should be able to sit alongside a belt that increases your maximum hit points.

Rare Items

...

Rare items allow us to create a category of treasures that are clearly more powerful without simply forcing them to a higher level of play.

...

By introducing rare items, we can allow those two weapons to sit near each other in terms of level.

So, what does mean if a magic item is rare?
First, the rules assume that the DM hands out one rare item per character per tier. Rare items are meant to be character-defining, powerful objects that help forge the character’s identity in the world. If you find a flame-tongue weapon, you’ve uncovered an important, powerful blade. Since the characters won’t have many of these items, they can be more complicated in terms of type and number of powers.

...

Uncommon Items

The rest of our magic items are now uncommon. They occupy the middle ground between rare and common items. They have powers, but these powers are typically daily abilities. They have static effects, but they are rarely character-defining or critical to a hero’s identity.


...

So first they get feedback that high level items feel a little flat. Then they republish a high level magical item as a rare item. Next, in looking at the feedback they decide to add a broader variety of magical item. There is nothing added here but a label of "Rare" from the PHB. Rare items let them make powerful items without 'forcing' them to a higher level of play, but lo and behold, the Holy Avenger remains at level 25 and hasn't changed at all or reflected any change in philosophy. We can argue whether we think this item is character defining. But that's purely opinion; a good few people in this thread do get a feeling of 'meh' about it.

That doesn't mean your opinion is wrong, but the majority is something that WotC should be interested in as far as pleasing customers and ultimately making money.

So the uncommon section then says that uncommon items typically have powers, but only daily (just like Holy Avenger,) and have static effects (+damage) but aren't critical to the heroes identity. We can argue on the second point, but the single power certainly is a daily, which is characteristic, according to the designer, of an uncommon item. As far +1d10 damage being critical to a heroes identity, I mean, maybe, if the heroes identity is damage. And +1d10 is critical to that.

I agree that they aren't going to throw out design philosophies (completely.) But these are items that are completely in the DM's hands that should be interesting plot wise, interesting mechanics wise, breaking new ground, and maybe even being broken power wise. We already have plenty of "meh" magical items. Give us some magical items that are just fun to look at and read in addition to playing with.

If we're "add"ing a new variety of magical item, shouldn't it fall somewhere above what we already had in the Player's Handbook?

 

[DracoSuave]

Your argument is based on the following assumptions:

That 'typical' and 'always' are the same word.

That Holy Avenger has a daily power in isolation.

That rarity is only determined by a specific class of powers, and is not a measuring stick for the entire item as a whole.

And, yeah, 'uses radiant powers' can be pretty critical to a character's identity. There's builds of multiple classes built on that entire premise. Not all of them are even divine.

Honestly, I suspect a lot of the complaining is that the Holy Avenger weapon isn't the 'I win' weapon it used to be. It isn't the 'All Paladins want this' weapon, and that's fine, as it's no longer a paladin-specific weapon.

For the characters who -do- want it, tho, it is quite good, and as enhancements go, it's always been an example of how to make an item enhancement that has more abilities than normal.

But then, you should save the QQ for when you see the total picture of what rare items represent. Saying Holy Avenger is going to be the 'top' of the rare items is pretty much doom and gloom without actual evidence.

On top of that... blame those who complained it was too easy to get this sort of weapon in the first place. You wanted a system of controls for existing weapons, and you have it. Isn't that what you wanted?