Re-opening an old can: Warlocks and Angels

[Cadfan]

Simplest reason- you haven't got the aptitude. You're wise beyond your years, but of middling charisma. Best become a Cleric- you'd rather work hard and be powerful, than take it easy and be mediocre. If you felt otherwise, you wouldn't be an adventurer at all.

I'd be ok with angelic warlocks, except... I feel like maybe there should be a bit of a firewall between the angelic warlocks and the creepy warlocks. Like maybe the angelic warlocks shouldn't be cursing people all over the place, and the creepy warlocks shouldn't be borrowing from the angel powers every so often. Or at higher levels where you get multiple pacts, binding a demon and an angel at the same time? Not really a fan.

So personally I'd want a second class for "nice" pact magic. At least if it became official. If it didn't, I could always retheme the existing warlock, but I usually find that ground up class design is the best choice in situations like these.

And if not a second class, at least an "alternate" version of the warlock, maybe one where a few class abilities have been replaced (the curse?), and a small suite of exclusive powers made available at the cost of not being able to access another suite of incompatible powers.

Heck, maybe an angel pact shouldn't even make you a ranged Striker. It could be that different. What's important is the flavor of the pact, right? Maybe a melee class would be better. Maybe a pact with an angel sends you towards a future where you wield a fiery sword while wings of light stream from your back, but where you never throw ranged blasts of eldritch fire.

I'd have to review the actual warlock class to know for sure if this is the case, but its my gut check response.

 

[med stud]

This is the key to understanding how pacts work IMC. The Lords of Light are interested in encouraging spiritual progression. The Lords of the Nine are interested in servitors. It's said that they had a rather strong disagreement over this issue in the distant past.

Faerie Monarchs, Far Realms entities and creatures from the Shadowfell are also interested in servitors.

This is the key reason why I won't allow pacts with warm and fuzzy beings in my setting. I do think the mechanic should be transparent enough to allow other GMs who do favor such things to include them in their games.

I'd like to add my POV to this; there are evil entities that want spiritual "progression"; you are closing to an evil Nirvana, reaching for being taken in by the Abyss. You serve your lords by oppression of the weak and sacrifices. Every step you take along your path, you are coming closer to your lords in the Abyss, a process that gives you a feeling of inner fulfillment. That is one kind of servant of the Abyss. The other one is the contractor-process where the lords of the Abyss forks over a portion of power in exchange for the souls of your enemies. One of them is a cleric, the other one is a warlock.

 

[Surgoshan]

Okay, there's an issue that no one has brought up and which is of central importance: celibacy. If you have high charisma, but want to serve your god, then obviously warlock is the way to go because it's the only way you'll get to use your charisma in the other kind of combat.

 

[Rechan]

Okay, there's an issue that no one has brought up and which is of central importance: celibacy. If you have high charisma, but want to serve your god, then obviously warlock is the way to go because it's the only way you'll get to use your charisma in the other kind of combat.

Depends upon the type of religion. Many representatives of RL religions can marry or are allowed to date.

 

[Midnight Dawns]

To answer the question of why not make pacts with angels instead of acting as a cleric or paladin of a god, there are several reasons. One is that becoming a warlock seems to require training as well. There is also the issue of making a pact with an angel is not the same gaining powers from the god you worship. If angels are relatively autonomous then one has to deal with whatever terms they come up with for the pact, and lets remember most people are afraid of making deals that may or may not be clearly defined. Such angels might also be viewed as being to different from the chosen god for the devote. If angels are not autonomous then they may simply not be able to make pacts. This would depend on the god as the angel would only be an extension of the god and any pact would really be made with the god. Such pacts, if they could be made, would have harsher requirements then those for being a priest or paladin. hope that made sense.

 

[Voss]

Okay, there's an issue that no one has brought up and which is of central importance: celibacy. If you have high charisma, but want to serve your god, then obviously warlock is the way to go because it's the only way you'll get to use your charisma in the other kind of combat.

If, and only if, you assume, with no reason to do so, that whatever god you want to contact requires celibacy of its priests or paladins. And if it does, and its CrazyMcNoWorshippers, God of Celibacy, why wouldn't he imposed that on any warlocks that contact him?


For me, the warlock strikes me as the easy road to arcane power. Beyond the basic knowledge to call the entity up, you don't need to know anything. Its completely at your own risk, of course, and the bargain might not be fair, but thats the sort of risk you take when you rely on otherworldly entities. Also, a priest or paladin is being allowed to access an ongoing chunk of power, a warlock essentially has a chunk of power thrust into him by the entity, and he then goes off on his merry way.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

I like the idea of making pacts with Angels.

It's the kind of thing I would've allowed anyway, but the new angel fluff makes it a lot more feasible. If you've got the right kind of conviction and the know-how to get in touch with one of these outsiders, an angel might very well decide to grant you a portion of its power. Maybe to advance the tenets of its patron god, maybe for personal power. Who knows? It's got interesting possibilities.

Personally, I like the idea of a Tiefling Paladin/Warlock.

 

[Irda Ranger]

However, ultimately the question of Warlocks making pacts with angels always comes down to one question for me: If you can just make a pact with an Angel to do good, why wouldn't everyone do it? It's a whole hell of a lot easier than being a priest or a paladin, right?

From the Angel's point of view, why would you want to work with a mercenary Warlock when it's just as easy to work with a devout member of the Faith?

And that's assuming the Warlock even has anything the Angel wants. If the Angel's sole interest is his God's "Prayer hit-meter" (as opposed to "Souls acquired, means not important") then the Warlock has nothing to offer.

 

[Surgoshan]

Sheesh, you make one sex jokes and the pedants can't leave it be.

 

[Quickleaf]

From the Angel's point of view, why would you want to work with a mercenary Warlock when it's just as easy to work with a devout member of the Faith?

And that's assuming the Warlock even has anything the Angel wants. If the Angel's sole interest is his God's "Prayer hit-meter" (as opposed to "Souls acquired, means not important") then the Warlock has nothing to offer.

Did you read my post about angelic warlocks on the previous page (#29) ? There are many answers to your questions. For example...

* Sehad, a young blacksmith, swears to avenge his father murdered during a barbarian raid. He goes to the local church of the God of Justice for aid, but the priests have their own agents involved and know that Sehad's justice would be colored by his desire for revenge. In actuality, the God of Justice is a cold deity, and one of his angels, the Angel of Mercy, is concerned that the God forgets why he is a deity of justice, and thus forgets to have empathy for those who suffer. The Angel of Mercy has been largely ignored by the God's clergy who prefer to call upon Angels of Justice and Penance. Seeking reconciliation between the barbarian tribe and the city-folk, the Angel of Mercy decides to answer Sehad's prayers for vengeance, hoping to guide him on the path of reconciling the two factions. The God of Justice would never have paid attention to Sehad, but to the more personal Angel of Mercy, the young blacksmith represents an opportunity to acheive justice on a grander scale. To that end, the Angel guides, aids, even manipulates Sehad to becoming a more merciful person and ultimately to forgiving his fathers' killer. Thus, Sehad is a Warlock (angelic pact), and is able to do what the Paladins and Clerics of the church could not accomplish.