Reach Weapon and Hold the Line

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Hey, Artoomis - why don't you fire off a letter to the Sage on this one?

 

[Artoomis]

Hey, Artoomis - why don't you fire off a letter to the Sage on this one?

Why bother? It's prefectly clear to me. It's easy enough to rule either way.

 

[Artoomis]

Huh?

So if the Undead type description in the Monster Manual states that undead are immune to effects that grant a Fort save unless it also affects objects...

... and in Complete Arcane, an effect that grants a Fort save but does not affect objects, that is activated as a swift action, is introduced...

... then we can't say whether or not undead are immune to that effect, since swift actions didn't exist when the Monster Manual was published?

-Hyp.

That's just... silly... and clearly not the same situation.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's just... silly... and clearly not the same situation.

How so?

The AoOs for movement that get rolled up into one provocation are those for leaving a threatened square.

The effects with Fort saves that undead are subject to are those that affect objects.

If a new source introduces an effect with a Fort save that does not affect objects, undead are not subject to it.

If a new source introduces an AoO for movement that does not result from leaving a threatened square, it doesn't get rolled up into one provocation.

How are the situations at all different?

-Hyp.

 

[beepeearr]

Here's the thing. Only leaving a the threatened spaces of the same opponent is counted as one provocation. Hold the line is simply adding a new way of provoking attacks of opportunity, which has nothing to do with leaving a threatened square. If a charging opponent enters a square you threatened it provokes an attack of opportunity. In the original example The Longspear weilder could actually make three Attacks of Opportunity, not two or just one. The original poster said the longspear weilder is also wearing spiked gauntlets, which means he also threatens at 5' not just 10'.

1st attack of opportunity for charging into square threatened by the longspear.
2nd attack of opportunity for leaving the square threatened by the longspear.
3rd attack of opportunity for charging into square threatened by the spiked gauntlets.

Performing the same action that provokes an attack of opportunity multiple times vs the same opponent provokes multiple attacks of opportunity provided the opponent has the AoO's to make. Trying to trip the same person with 4 seperate trip attempts provokes 4 AoO. Only leaving a threatened space has been specified as being any different.

 

[beepeearr]

Keep in mind that doing this requires the player to have combat reflexes, hold the line, a BAB of +2 and a Dex of at least 12 for one additional attack of opportunity or 14 for two additional attacks of opportunity, plus weapon proficiency with a reach weapon (not overly difficult, but an extra expense for most dex heavy characters, the ones who are more likely to get Combat reflexes)

 

[Hypersmurf]

If a charging opponent enters a square you threatened it provokes an attack of opportunity.

This is not, in fact, the wording of Hold the Line. It's not for entering a square you threaten; it's for entering an area you threaten.

It could be argued that the area the character threatens is 'all squares within ten feet' (assuming he can use his spiked gauntlet while wielding a two-handed weapon, which is also debatable).

Thus, while the attacker enters a space the character threatens twice, he is only entering a single area the character threatens, thus only provoking one AoO due to Hold the Line.

-Hyp.

 

[Aaron L]

If you take one full round action (full attack) and use it to attempt to a/ grapple, b/ disarm, and c/ punch someone, with no relevant feats, and that person has Combat Reflexes, would you consider your one full round action to provoke one AoO, or three?

-Hyp.

Or even betetr yet, you just attempt to punch someone 3 times!

You would most definately get AoOs for each attack that provoked one.

It doesnt seem all that confusing to me. The charge provokes an AoO, and moving out of the threatened area provokes an AoO. Just because one action caused both events to occur, doesnt mean that both events didnt occur.

I guess the question is: are AoOs triggered by actions, or events?

I say events. If you are bull rushed through someones threat range, they get AoOs against you even though you didnt choose to take the action to move through thier threatened area, yes? The event calls for the AoOs, regardless of what action initiated it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Or even betetr yet, you just attempt to punch someone 3 times!

That's the next question, after they answer the first one

-Hyp.

 

[beepeearr]

Granted It does say area, not squares, but I personally would rule it as each threatened square you enter, otherwise Hold the Line could be bypassed by waiting to start a charge until you are already in a threatened space, and that would just be kind of goofy. I wouldn't object to houseruling it as only provoking once no matter how many threatened squares you enter, that way the hold the line character wouldn't lose his AoO because the charging character waited until he was already in a threatened area to charge. But since things big enough to have a large threatened area typically have a crappy dex, I don't expect to see it abused much.

Don't forget there is a really easy way of getting around hold the line already, it's called not charging. This is one of those feats the player has very little control over, he really should get the most bang for his buck on the chances he does get.

As far as using the spiked gauntlet while weilding a two handed weapon, he can let go of the long spear to threaten with the Gauntlet, you only need one hand to hold onto something, or he could drop it completely.