Readied actions interrupting charges

[KarinsDad]

Some Standard actions CAN be modified as they are executed.

Like Passing Attack.

Hence the reason I wrote it:

Do you allow any other standard action to be modified once it is already started if the standard action itself does not state that it can be modified?

The simplest interpretation is the one that allows for the same amount of modification that most other standard actions do, i.e. none. Otherwise, one opens up a real can of worms with regard to "what if this..?" "what if that...?".

 

[gerwen]

I think it'd be valuable to step back from the rules and examine what a real world charge is, then interpret from there.

One combatant running up to another (probably with weapon raised) and hitting him.

In the scenario, if F charged from the same general area as T, then M should be able to adjust target and charge F. Think of charging a line, when someone breaks out and charges at you. It's not much of a stretch to believe you could focus your charge on the breakout attacker.

If F charged from somewhere else, say to the side. You'd think M would be able to stop his charge, maybe not immediately, but in the time it takes F to charge a few squares. M may not get an attack, but wouldn't have to charge past F if he didn't want to.

If F charged from somewhere unseen by M, then M would probably charge past, granting all bonuses. He could then stop in a square or maybe two to respond (next round)

Also, i'm new to 4E and miniatures for combat. If F has a readied action to charge M after M moves 3 squares, how is the simultaneous motion handled? M doesn't stop his charge to wait for F to run up. Do they get moved alternating square by square? M is already in motion, it doesn't make sense that F would be able to move 3 squares before M gets his 4th.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think it'd be valuable to step back from the rules and examine what a real world charge is, then interpret from there.

One combatant running up to another (probably with weapon raised) and hitting him.

This is what should be done for activities that are not directly covered by the rules. I try to swing from the chandelier, flip over the bookcase, and attack the foe from above as I drop down on him.

But Charge has explicit rules. The idea is to try to interpret the rules, not to interpret what the rules are trying to emulate and then add additional bonus capabilities that the rules do not have.

Once one tries to interpret rules based on what they think the rules are trying to emulate, it starts delving into houserules. Which is fine, but its not the rules.

Also, i'm new to 4E and miniatures for combat. If F has a readied action to charge M after M moves 3 squares, how is the simultaneous motion handled? M doesn't stop his charge to wait for F to run up. Do they get moved alternating square by square? M is already in motion, it doesn't make sense that F would be able to move 3 squares before M gets his 4th.

4E is turned based. Except for some specific actions that can be done on an opponent's turn, there is no way to segregate movement like this between two foes.

Nor would you want to do so. It would be a logistical nightmare if multiple players could move their miniatures simultaneously.

 

[kerbarian]

The simplest interpretation is the one that allows for the same amount of modification that most other standard actions do, i.e. none. Otherwise, one opens up a real can of worms with regard to "what if this..?" "what if that...?".

The thing is... the action clearly can be modified. Take the example from the OP where a wall of ice is dropped into the charge path. It's impossible for the charge to be completed without modification, so the charge must be modified. The question then becomes: What is the appropriate modification given the new circumstances? Should the charging monster stop dead as soon as the wall appears? Should it continue some of the charge movement (until it reaches the wall) and then stop?

Or if the target moves during the charge. Again, it's impossible to complete the charge as declared, since after moving to the original destination square, the attack won't be possible. So which is the appropriate modification: Move to the original destination square and then not make the attack? Or move to a new, legal destination square and complete the attack as declared? Either way, the charge is being modified.

 

[KarinsDad]

The thing is... the action clearly can be modified. Take the example from the OP where a wall of ice is dropped into the charge path. It's impossible for the charge to be completed without modification, so the charge must be modified.

Must be modified? Why?

A Fighter stops the movement of a foe with an Opportunity Attack. Do we then say "Well, the unexpected happened. What are you going to do with the rest of your movement?". No, the move action is completely interrupted and prevented, just like a Readied Wall of Ice completely interrupts and prevents the Charge action. The foe can no longer move to his target square. The action is null and void.

That's the thing about interrupts (and opportunity actions). They can prevent the original action by changing the current circumstances.


You are breaking up the Standard Action Charge into a Movement Action and a Melee Basic Attack Action. It's not two actions. It's one. If it is stopped (either by removing the ability to move or the target), it's stopped. It's not two actions where the attacker can then change his mind. It's one action. No different than hundreds of other actions in the game system.

If I do Cleave against a foe and he does an immediate interrupt Teleport to get away, I do not get to mid-action change my attack to the other foe standing next to me.

Why would Charge be different from this?

I really do not understand the rationale for why one would allow Charge to be broken up into multiple actions instead of one contiguous action.

 

[interwyrm]

Just wanted to throw this into the mix...

What if the readied charge ends with an Eldritch Strike (MBA that slides the enemy)?

 

[kerbarian]

Must be modified? Why?

A Fighter stops the movement of a foe with an Opportunity Attack. Do we then say "Well, the unexpected happened. What are you going to do with the rest of your movement?". No, the move action is completely interrupted and prevented, just like a Readied Wall of Ice completely interrupts and prevents the Charge action. The foe can no longer move to his target square. The action is null and void.

So you're saying the appropriate modification is to stop the action when it becomes impossible to complete? M declared it would charge 6 squares and then attack T. Instead it ended up moving 2 squares and stopping. That's still a modification, and I don't see why it's necessarily the most appropriate one.

A few examples to clarify what you're saying: Let me know if you agree with these conclusions.

All of these start with: M charges T, who is 4 squares away in a straight line. T reacts with a readied action after M's first square of movement.

1. T's readied action is to shift back one square. Instead of charging an extra square, M stops immediately (after one square of movement) because its declared destination square is no longer valid for a charge.

2. T's readied action is to cast Storm Pillar in front of himself. Instead of altering its charge path to go around -- still moving directly to a nearest square -- M stops immediately (after one square of movement) because it cannot complete its movement along its declared charge path.

3. T's readied action is to cast Storm Pillar next to M's charge path but not blocking it. M is forced to complete its charge as declared, entering 3 squares adjacent to the Storm Pillar and taking a big pile of damage.

What if M is a minion and knows that the action is impossible to complete because it will die to the Storm Pillar before it gets close enough to attack? Does that mean M stops moving, since the action is impossible to complete as declared?

 

[KarinsDad]

Just wanted to throw this into the mix...

What if the readied charge ends with an Eldritch Strike (MBA that slides the enemy)?

What if? I'm not understanding the reason for your question. If you are asking "Can I choose where to slide after hitting?", yes. Specific rules override general rules. If you are asking "If I can make decisions after the fact because of Eldritch Strike, can I make decisions after the fact for other parts of and Eldritch Strike Charge?", the answer is no.

 

[KarinsDad]

So you're saying the appropriate modification is to stop the action when it becomes impossible to complete? M declared it would charge 6 squares and then attack T. Instead it ended up moving 2 squares and stopping. That's still a modification, and I don't see why it's necessarily the most appropriate one.

I'm not looking at the rules and not seeing how Charge is any different from any other action. If interrupted, it can be negated.

It works just like any other action.

If an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, that action is lost.

A few examples to clarify what you're saying: Let me know if you agree with these conclusions.

All of these start with: M charges T, who is 4 squares away in a straight line. T reacts with a readied action after M's first square of movement.

1. T's readied action is to shift back one square. Instead of charging an extra square, M stops immediately (after one square of movement) because its declared destination square is no longer valid for a charge.

Yup. Although I could see an interpretation of the creature moving 4 squares.

2. T's readied action is to cast Storm Pillar in front of himself. Instead of altering its charge path to go around -- still moving directly to a nearest square -- M stops immediately (after one square of movement) because it cannot complete its movement along its declared charge path.

Yup. Although I could see an interpretation of the creature moving 3 squares.

3. T's readied action is to cast Storm Pillar next to M's charge path but not blocking it. M is forced to complete its charge as declared, entering 3 squares adjacent to the Storm Pillar and taking a big pile of damage.

Yup. Sucks to be him.

What if M is a minion and knows that the action is impossible to complete because it will die to the Storm Pillar before it gets close enough to attack? Does that mean M stops moving, since the action is impossible to complete as declared?

No, the minion finishes his move. Sucks even more to be him.


Your "the action can be modified by the charging creature" intepretation assumes that the creature is making careful precise movement like normal movement. That's not what is indicated by the Charge movement restriction rule and the fact that the movement is part of the Standard Action.

The creature is not doing a Move Action. It's doing a Charge.

 

[jbear]

The rules seem fairly explicit. If the Trigger is set to interrupt the movement, the movement of the charge is interrupted before the attack, hence the charging creature is attacked as he charges to attack.

Whether he stops or not thus provoking another OA as the fighter now has it marked seems to be a judgement call the DM is going to have to make, and that the player's are going to have to live with because it's fully in the grey zone.

But what is the problem? If he carries through with the charge, the Fighter nails him, hence he's doing his job. If he simply stops in his tracks and doesn't attack, then the fighter is doing his job. Win Win situation.