Reading Scrolls in armour

[Metalsmith]

Putting words in my Mouth.

Next time use more salt, I like salt.

Damned if he does. Damned if he doesn't.

If he argues for a rule change that would benefit his character, he would be labeled a whiner. If he argues for a rule change that hurts his character, he would be labeled a hypocrite.

Silly me, I thought the fact he had personal experience playing such a character increased his credibility. I guess I am so naive...

Nobody is lableing him a "Whiner". If you want to, I think it would be unwarranted.
If you argue for a rule change that hurts your character and you play it that way, it Increases your credibility. However, if you argue one way and continue to play it another then it Decreases your Credibility. Seeeee?
I guess I am so Bright.

Metalsmith

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Metalsmith, I was not thinking of you in the other half of the argument. Let me not name names. I did not intend to put words in your mouth. My apologies if you thought I did.

My point is that I do not think it is quite fair to berate someone for suggesting a rule change but exploiting the rules as it stands.

If he asks for a rules change that benefits him, he is a whiner.
If he asks for a rules change that is neutral to his character he is also a whiner.
If he asks for a rules change that hurts his character and complies with the rules as it "should" be, then what is the problem? Stop whining.
If he ask for a rules change that hurts his character but continues with the rules as is, that different: that is hyposcrisy.

He can't win.

That is why we should try to stick to playing the ball and not the man. I am sure Caliban has a pretty good gauge on the practical angle of this situation.

 

[Caliban]

That's fine. Of course every spell you cast will be from a scroll at 12 gp plus and entire day each. You'll be spending 1 day out of action for each spell you cast.

Its still not as good as Still Spell with a level 3 Wiz (a level 3 wiz can still cast 2nd level spells out of armor if the need arises).

Aaron

It's an effect of the LG time tracking system and magic item creation rules. Your character get's 52 time units of 1 week each per year.

Each module you play takes from 1-2 time units.

After each module you may spend 1 time unit for magic item creation. (You only get 5 actual days of work done, apparently even adventurers knock off for the weekend.)

So after every module I can create 5 scrolls. Half the time I don't even end up using a scroll, because my character is pretty effective anyway. But there are certain modules out there that seem to be set up as party killers (things like throwing a Bulette at a group of 4th level characters, immediately after a huge fight with a group of goblins). That's when I break out the scrolls of shield, use full expertise, and become the dwarven wall. This gives the rest of the party time to get their act together and bring the heavy hitters to bear (spellcasters and barbarians, mainly).

 

[Caliban]

[Daniel looks at the circling piranhas, takes a deep breath, and plunges in.]

Metalsmith, I think that Caliban is saying that he believes the game should be ruled a certain way, to promote balance.

However, as a player, he's gonna build an effective character within the rules.

As long as LG allows this combination, even though he thinks they shouldn't allow it, he'll use it.

Is this correct, Caliban?

That's exactly correct.

Myself, I lean slightly toward the side of requiring somatic components with scrolls, but not heavily so. I just don't see the balance problem as being that great.

I know, for example, that the 8th-level monk in our game ends up with an armor class in the high twenties in most battles, via a combination of high wisdom, high dex, and several spells (protection from evil, barkskin, mage armor, and cat's grace being the main ones). Sometimes he'll manage to top thirty (by adding haste to the mix). It's not a gamebreaker.

Daniel

The thing is, my character has a 24 AC without using shield most of the time.

When using Dodge and Expertise he can hit a 30 AC.

Combined with shield, he can hit a 37 AC, 39 if he fights defensively at the same time, 40 if he also casts Protection from Evil. His touch AC is 27 or 28 when he's in max AC mode. (I have a nice little chart I drew up to help me keep track of all his AC bonuses and attack penalties. I keep it to show to the DM's to when they can't believe my AC. Sometimes they cry.)

Add +4 to that when he's fighting a giant.

Most of the time I don't use the Max AC mode because I only have a +5 attack bonus when I do, and most opponents don't have a +20 attack bonus. I can generally set my AC high enough that they only hit me on a 20 and still maintain a decent attack bonus.

Even so, I can always do the True Strike + Power Attack combo if I need to. (+15 to attack, even after Power Attack, Expertise, and Fighting Defensively are figured in). I consider it my non-holy smite.

 

[LokiDR]

As a person who hears many stories about LG, the new money system, and the time units, and who has read several modules, I can say this. What Caliban is doing is expected by the module writers, which causes them to make the modules harder, which makes the people who can not come up this kind of combination even more screwed. Since LG follows "official" rules, then the overpowering combinations, like this, should be stopped, so the rest of the players can be spared. Smart players like Caliban make the whole process harder, because judges don't want people to skate through. I once witnessed a company go through a module that mangled my friends, a near TPK, without a problem by abuse of the invisibility spell. What did was perfectly legal, but made the process too easy for one group, too hard for another.

What I am saying is that the current rule is loop hole, one of many. In a home game, the DM would change the module, change the rule, or otherwise compensate. LG needs more judges who are willing to do that, not just blindly read the module.

 

[Ketjak]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Eccles
But would the weight of wearing the armour reduce the mystical vibrations, etc, and thus cause a failure chance?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I gotta tell ya'. I don't know what the hell you're talkin' about.

I am slain.



Edit: smilie added to reflect that I'm still freaking laughing!

 

[Enkhidu]

OK, just to see if I got the gist of both sides, here's a recap.

Side A: The SRD, the FAQ, and the Sage all agree that spell completion items are not subject to spell failure induced by armor. This includes scrolls.

Side B: Certain inconsistencies between text in the core rules, as well as the item Caster's Shield, point toward spell completion items, specificaly scrolls, as being subject to spell failure due to armor and shields.

Hopefully that's the arguements in a nutshell.

So, with that in mind, I asked myself a question: what would it be like to read a rolled up piece of paper using 1 hand?

I tried it, and let me tell you, I had one heck of a time doing it. I then tried doing the same thing by using 2 hands, while one of them had something in it. This turned out to be possible, but difficult to pull off.

So, with that in mind, would it be out of line to say that scrolls are subject to spell failure penalties, but only from shield? That would fit with the Caster's Shieldspell, and seems to be consistent with at least a modicum of common sense...

I await the inevitable picking apart of my arguement...

 

[mikebr99]

OK, just to see if I got the gist of both sides, here's a recap.

Side A: The SRD, the FAQ, and the Sage all agree that spell completion items are not subject to spell failure induced by armor. This includes scrolls.

Side B: Certain inconsistencies between text in the core rules, as well as the item Caster's Shield, point toward spell completion items, specificaly scrolls, as being subject to spell failure due to armor and shields.

Hopefully that's the arguements in a nutshell.

So, with that in mind, I asked myself a question: what would it be like to read a rolled up piece of paper using 1 hand?

I tried it, and let me tell you, I had one heck of a time doing it. I then tried doing the same thing by using 2 hands, while one of them had something in it. This turned out to be possible, but difficult to pull off.

So, with that in mind, would it be out of line to say that scrolls are subject to spell failure penalties, but only from shield? That would fit with the Caster's Shieldspell, and seems to be consistent with at least a modicum of common sense...

I await the inevitable picking apart of my arguement...

I agree that it would take two hands to read a scroll. But any suit of armour is designed not to limit the use of your hands. I also agree that a scroll user would have to release he shield and weapon in order to use a scroll.

But the point is that, according to the FAQ and page 199 & 203 of the DMG., all that is required to use a scroll is to read it out loud, and maybe point at your target.

And the Caster's Shield has the scroll in condensed form on the armband, so no hands required.

So, to sum up.. I could probably compromise and agrre with you that a scroll user who insists on keeping his shield on his arm would be subject to it's arcane spell failure chance...

OR

That due to the fact that he is using that arm and hand for other things during that round, he doesn't get the benefits of the shield bonus for AC till his next turn.

 

[Pielorinho]

Interesting point, Enkhidu. I could easily see, however, scrolls coming with small rods attached to the top and bottom edges of the paper. These rods would make the scroll sturdier and would facilitate one-handed reading: that is, you grasp the top rod and flick your hand, causing the scroll to roll open. Hold it by the top; the weight of the bottom rod holds the bottom edge; and you can read it one-handed.

This is an interesting point, though: does anyone argue that you can't read a scroll if you have (for example) a wand in your off-hand? Assuming that you can read a scroll one-handed, if you have to make the appropriate somatic gestures, then you're making these somatic gestures with a hand full of scroll.

And if you can make those somatic gestures with a hand full of scroll, could you cast a spell normally if your hands were full?

That is, if I can make the somatic gestures for Magic Missile when I'm reading it from a scroll, and both my hands are full, could I make those same somatic gestures when I'm casting it from memory, and both my hands are full?

Hmm....

Daniel

 

[Aaron2]

I once witnessed a company go through a module that mangled my friends, a near TPK, without a problem by abuse of the invisibility spell. What did was perfectly legal, ...

A perfectly legal abuse of the invisibility spell? Please elaborate.


Aaron