Reading/Speaking Languages

Kerrick

First Post
I've always thought the binary "either you don't know a language at all, or you're completely fluent in it" thing was stupid. Last night, as I was trying to sleep, I came up with an elegant (I think) alternative that models increasing fluency in a language. After revisin Speak Language, I had to come up with an alternative to "If you can speak it, you can write it" which is also crap - there are many ancient/dead languages that scholars can read, but no one knows how to speak. So, I took Decipher Script (which had a half-assed write-up anyway) and made it like Speak Language, then gave it some extra stuff. Let me know what you think - they're sblocked to save space.



Speak Language (None; Trained Only)

[sblock]The Speak Language skill doesn’t work like other skills. Languages work as follows.

There are three levels of familiarity with a language: proficient, conversant, and fluent. Proficient means you know basic words and phrases, enough to get by (ordering food, asking about basic services, etc.). Conversant means you know a fair bit of the language and can hold a conversation as long as the subject doesn't become too technical or esoteric. Fluent means you speak the language like a native.

Each level (skill rank) costs one skill point; you cannot spend more than one skill point a language when levelling up. In other words, you can't suddenly go from not knowing the language at all to being fluent in it – you have to become proficient and conversant first.

You start at 1st level knowing one or two languages (based on your race). You are automatically fluent in these languages. You gain an additional number of skill points equal to your starting Intelligence bonus; these can be applied to buy one or more levels of one or more languages (this is the only case where you can automatically become fluent – you are effectively deciding at character creation that the character can speak the given language fluently).

If a character is less than fluent in a language and is addressed by someone with a greater grasp of the language, he can make an Int check to understand what was being said. The DC is 10 if the speaker is proficient, 15 if he is conversant, or 20 if he is fluent. If the character is conversant, he gains a +4 insight bonus to his check. If the speaker is using a dialect the character doesn't speak, you can make a DC 10 Int check to identify the language; the character's level of fluency is reduced by one step for purposes of understanding the speaker.

You can purchase Speak Language just like any other skill, but each language has only three ranks as noted above, and you can't spend more than one rank per language each level. A list of common languages can be found on the table below (it's the same table as in the PHB).

Action: Not applicable.

Try Again: Yes, but only if the speaker repeats what he says in a simpler form.[/sblock]



Decipher Script (Int; Trained Only)

[sblock]
Check: The Decipher Script doesn't work like other skills. Instead of buying ranks in Decipher Script, you buy ranks in a language.

There are three levels of familiarity with a language: proficient, conversant, and fluent. Proficient means you know basic words and phrases (read/write on a child's level). Conversant means you know a fair bit of the language and can read and write most books, letters, etc., as long as they don't use a lot of vernacular, slang, or obscure words (this is the most common level for the average person). Fluent means you can read and write the language with a high degree of proficiency (a scholar, priest, wizard, or other learned person).

When you encounter a message or text with which you are familiar, you can make an Int check to read and understand it. The DC for the check depends on the complexity of the writing:

Complexity Examples DC
Easy A child's primer 8
Moderate A book written for the average person 12
Hard A text written in an obscure dialect but using normal language 16
Very hard An in-depth scholarly text 20

The DC can also be modified by one or more of the following.

Criteria Modifier
Language is archaic (a form no longer used) +5
Language is old (an uncommon form) +3
Text is badly damaged (less than 30% is readable) +10
Text is partially damaged (30-60% is readable) +6
Text is in code (same alphabet) +6
Text is in code (different alphabet) +10
Reader is proficient in the language +0
Reader is conversant in the language +3
Reader is fluent in the language +6

If the check succeeds by 4 or less, you understand the general content of a piece of writing about one page long (or the equivalent). If the check succeeds by 5 or more, you understand everything on the page; if the check succeeds by 10 or more, you can discern any hidden meanings (double entendres, metaphors, hidden messages, etc.). If the check fails by 10 or more (or you roll a natural 1), you have drawn a false conclusion about the meaning of the text (this is left up to the DM, based on what the text actually says). The Decipher Script check is made secretly, so you can’t tell whether the conclusion you draw is true or false.

If the language is one you can't read, but uses the same alphabet as one you can (giant and dwarven, e.g.), you can make a DC 10 Int check to identify the language.

Action: Deciphering the equivalent of a single page of script takes 1 minute (ten consecutive full-round actions) if you are fluent, 5 minutes if you are conversant, or 10 minutes if you are proficient.

Try Again: Yes, but only after you have acquireded more knowledge (i.e., gained one or more ranks).

Special: A character with the Diligent feat gets a +2 bonus on Decipher Script checks.

Synergy: If you are fluent in a written language, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks involving scrolls written in that language.[/sblock]
 

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I don't use quite your system, but something a bit similar.

http://vishteercampaign.pbwiki.com/Language

I don't give extra skill points in language to intelligent players; they have to use regular skill points for them.

I like your use of Decipher Script; I may steal the idea and work some of it in to my rules.

I find that PCs rarely buy languages. I'm thinking that if I do something else and combine some other skills (for example as the multiple variations on "diplomacy" such as bluff, innuendo, and intimidate) into one "communicate" skill, that would free up points for people to invest in a language or three.
 

I don't use quite your system, but something a bit similar.
I like that a lot. I was going to do five steps for written language, but I thought it might be too many (I tend to overcomplicate things), so I scaled it back to three. I also wanted to do some sort of "related languages" thing (again, I was thinking more for written than spoken, since a lot of languages use the same alphabet).

I don't give extra skill points in language to intelligent players; they have to use regular skill points for them.
Yeah, but like you said, I don't often see people spending skill ranks for languages either. Giving them "free" ranks lets them learn a few languages without worrying about wasting skill points too. Our group uses languages a fair bit, but even then we don't often spend skill points to learn new ones.

Your Good With Languages feat sounds a lot like Polyglot from the ELH, which I was going to add to my post but forgot. It would read something like this:

Polyglot (General)

Prerequisites: Int 13

Benefit: You gain 3 skill points, which can be used to buy levels in one or more written or spoken languages. You can't spend more than 1 skill point per written or spoken language (though you can spend one to learn or increase your fluency in the written and spoken forms of the same language).

You can choose this feat multiple times; each time, you gain another 3 skill points.


Do you mind if I borrow from your rules to incorporate into mine? Once I get it finalized, I want to post it up on our wiki (see my sig).
 

It's okay to have multiple levels of proficiency, but now you're requiring even MORE skill points sunk into individual languages. One way to balance this is to crib the "language groups" concept from d20Modern. Basically, if you know one Elvish language you can do similar checks on the related elvish tongues at a -2 penalty, and so on. To make it even screwier, you can make it so that in your world, the various Human languages are descended from other races' languages, making them parts of the same groups.
 

I use an alternate system in my game that abolishes the 'language' skill, as well as a couple others, and replaces it with a cascading Culture skill.


The basic concept is that you learn a grouping of things about a given area that include language, history, heraldry, 'Knowledge: Local', etc..

By granting bonus skill points I avoid forcing players to spend a limited resource on a new rule. I have been using this rule in my last two campaigns and have enjoyed the flexibility with the minimal overhead.

I even use 'family groups', as Spatzimaus mentions. :)
Of course, the DM has to put together the table of languages for thier own campaign, but that is not a difficult deal to do. In my current campaign I have a Mage who has taken 9 ranks in Culture: Dassen, which allows him to communicate in any of the local nations tongues and even understands a dash of ancient Sarlonian! {something that may come up in the game soon..}
 

It's okay to have multiple levels of proficiency, but now you're requiring even MORE skill points sunk into individual languages.
Yeah, that's a concern.. that's why I give you bonus skill points based on Int, and you can gain more with Polyglot. I'm thinking about giving everyone free 1 language point every 3 levels, and bards get 1/2 levels - that mirrors their exposure to different cultures in their travels, and gives them a chance to expand their repertoire without having to take away skill points from more important things.

One way to balance this is to crib the "language groups" concept from d20Modern. Basically, if you know one Elvish language you can do similar checks on the related elvish tongues at a -2 penalty, and so on.
Yeah, I want to do that too. If you know Goblin, for instance, you can kind of understand orc, kobold, and other humanoid languages (say, with a -4 penalty); if you speak High Elven, you can understand Common Elven with only a -2.

I use an alternate system in my game that abolishes the 'language' skill, as well as a couple others, and replaces it with a cascading Culture skill.
That's interesting. I personally would double the numbers and include the bonus as well - so a +4 bonus, for example, would be "basic conversation, no accent". Otherwise you're giving player no incentive to specialize, and it makes experts and loremasters pointless.
 

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