Ready and an Arm

[Janos Audron]

Errr...no? He's spending an action to be able to interrupt the spectre. If the spectre doesn't attack him, he's wasted a turn that he could have spent doing something else. Don't you think it's kind of cheesy to have the spectre be able to attack without being vulnerable in any way itself?

Yeah, but even moving is enough to counter this tactic. If you stand somewhere for 5 minutes this spectre is intelligent enough to move under you and assume you are still there...

And the readied action is still based on a spot check...which he only gets after the attack, when the spectres arm should be back under the ground...

Anyway, as per the rules, the spectre is not Hiding at all - instead, he has total cover and concealment from the floor. (They know where the spectre is as soon as it makes the attack - it's right under the wizard!)

...or in any of the other 8 cubes surrounding the wizard! By the rules, why can't he hide and have a bonus to his hide because of cover?

When it is attacking the wizard, I would give it cover (based on how much is still 'submerged') but no concealment. The cover bonus to AC and reflex saves should be sufficient to mdel the spectre's attempt to pull the arm back in after itself. Unlike normal cover situations, the wizard would get no cover from the intervening floor because the spectre can attack right through it.

Yeah, give it cover! +2 AC, +(a bit) on reflex saves! Woohoo. And Magic Missiles aren't affected by cover anyway.

So you are allowing the specter to move through stone freely, and not be subject to blindness? Well I hope you are at least giving him a 50% miss chance to hit the Wizard then, since only his arm is popping out of the stone, and his head is still in the floor.

I don't see what blindness has to do with it, but the spectre did have 50% miss chance...

 

[drnuncheon]

[quote =Janos Audron]If you stand somewhere for 5 minutes this spectre is intelligent enough to move under you and assume you are still there...[/quote]

In combat, the D&D rules assume you are moving around inside that 5' square, not standing unmoving with your feet planted firmly on the floor.

And the readied action is still based on a spot check...which he only gets after the attack, when the spectres arm should be back under the ground...

So, the spectre's arm is invisible during the time that it reaches out of the stone and begins flailing away trying to hit the wizard, and only becomes visible after it's back underground? Huh?

...or in any of the other 8 cubes surrounding the wizard!

No, he's in the one the freakin' ghostly arm came out of to attack the wizard.

Yeah, give it cover! +2 AC, +(a bit) on reflex saves! Woohoo. And Magic Missiles aren't affected by cover anyway.

Well, if you're in 3.0, it would probably have 9/10 cover, which is a lot better than what you describe. And the option is there in 3.5 as well (PHB p152, Varying Degrees of Cover)

Of course, your rather scornful reaction to an opposing viewpoint leads me to believe that you wanted validation of your way of doing things rather than actual suggestions, so you're on your own. You're the DM, do whatever you want to.

J

 

[Janos Audron]

If you stand somewhere for 5 minutes this spectre is intelligent enough to move under you and assume you are still there...

In combat, the D&D rules assume you are moving around inside that 5' square, not standing unmoving with your feet planted firmly on the floor.

Hence the 50% miss chance...

So, the spectre's arm is invisible during the time that it reaches out of the stone and begins flailing away trying to hit the wizard, and only becomes visible after it's back underground? Huh?

No, it's not invisible, just unspotted...which is why *I think* the readied action doesn't trigger...

No, he's in the one the freakin' ghostly arm came out of to attack the wizard.

, true it's in that square...but did he see that?

Well, if you're in 3.0, it would probably have 9/10 cover, which is a lot better than what you describe. And the option is there in 3.5 as well (PHB p152, Varying Degrees of Cover)

Hm, my players were very quick to show me the part where all cover gives you +2 AC and they didn't show me that rule...thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Of course, your rather scornful reaction to an opposing viewpoint leads me to believe that you wanted validation of your way of doing things rather than actual suggestions, so you're on your own. You're the DM, do whatever you want to.

Hm, let's see, I come to the rules forum and I post a situation and the way I handled it...do I want validation?

I do whatever I want to, as long as I am correct, and since, in this situation, I'm not really sure I handled it correctly, I came here to see if I did.

Now, you may think this a cheesy tactic or whatever, what I want to know is if the readied action should have triggered... If you can explain to me how hiding, attacking, readied actions on a hidden attacker and gaining total cover are resolved then this thing is solved...

And the scornful reaction is because there are a lot of things I don't like in my campaign...(and don't tell me to change something: I have my reasons why I don't change things. That doesn't mean, however, I can't be scornful )

 

[LostSoul]

A simple note/question:

The undead is effectively blind while in the stone. He travels in the stone to a spot directly under the wizard. How is he going to know he's under the wizard? Is this undead particularly good with distances?

AR

He should be able to make a Listen check:

Incorporeal creatures hiding inside solid objects get a +2 circumstance bonus on Listen checks, because solid objects carry sound well. Pinpointing an opponent from inside a solid object uses the same rules as pinpointing invisible opponents (see Invisibility, below).

The DC to pinpoint the PC is 0 (he's in combat), +1 per 10 feet.

 

[RigaMortus]

I don't see what blindness has to do with it, but the spectre did have 50% miss chance...

Well, that is the reason for the 50% miss chance. The specter would be blind because it can't (normally) see through solid stone (unless you modified the specters sight in some way). If someone is blind, that means their targets have Total Concealment against them. Total Concealment gives a 50% miss chance on attacks.

You could give the specter a Hide check if you wanted to, but the point is moot as they have Total Cover and Total Concealment anyway. As soon as the arm reaches out to hit the target, it is no longer concealed and no longer hiding and is therefore in plain view. So the player doesn't need a spot check to try and see the arm, as the specter revealed himself.

 

[drnuncheon]

The DC to pinpoint the PC is 0 (he's in combat), +1 per 10 feet.

Actually, that's the DC to detect the PC. From the SRD section on invisibility:

A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

J

 

[spunky_mutters]

From the SRD:

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks.

So the Spectre can detect the wizard despite being in the object, it gets a 50% miss chance to attack if it stays in, and it can be struck with a readied action.

Where's the problem. Since the wizard knows a spectre is attacking, and is readying an action to attack it, we can presume the wizard is doing nothing but looking for the spectre until it shows up. The wizard triggers when the spectre attacks for the first time. The sniping rules don't apply to melee attacks, and so are not applicable.

Wizard goes first, spectre has cover.

 

[Janos Audron]

Thank you Spunky_mutters: that was what I was looking for.