Readying an action for when Time Stop ends

[Muddman]

I banned WRT for just the reason you guys are saying. The lone exception was one of the players was a crusader and I was cool with her having it because there was no guarantee she'd get it every other round.

I also banned the maneuver that let you shrug off anything affecting you, what fantacrap.

As for the spell, Time Stop is designed to give you time to cast spells on yourself, not others, and thats the point of the spell. If you want to allow it, good luck, because he'll do it every combat from now on. My players would (shudder).

I also discourage Mordenkainen's disjunction with the, "Ok, but they'll do it to you" arguement, and thats usually enough since the day a 20th level rakshasa sorceror had that in their spell list with saves of like 40 or so, they learned that wasn't fun pretty darn quick.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I don't see anything that disallows a readied action during a time stop. I allow it. You need pretty strong justification to disallow specific actions because nothing in the Time Stop spell description says that those "rounds of apparent time" are any different than other rounds (except as explicitly noted about damaging, etc.).

With regards to Mord's Disjunction, I plan on using that as a bad guy for the first time next Saturday (not tomorrow). We've never actually used it in game, so this will be fascinating to see and I can't wait to see the player's faces when most of their goods turns to crap. Of course, the BBEG might never get a chance to use it, but we'll see.

 

[prospero63]

First off, what was the expectation by the player? That they would get to cast the disintegrate and no one would be able to be protected from it, etc?

1. Wizard uses a Standard Action to cast time stop. Het rolls a 3, and so gets 4 rounds of "apparent time."

Good so far...

2. On rounds 1, 2 and 3, he casts some standard buffing spells.

Good so far...

3. On round 4, he Readies an action to target his foe with disintegrate, on the condition of time restarting for everyone else.

Nothing wrong with this that I can see. Per the rules:

To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

4. The time stop ends, triggering the Readied action. He casts disintegrate.

No, this is where I think you have a flawed premise. The time stop doesn't end. Read the last sentence I quoted from the SRD above. The readied action occurs just before the time stop ends. This then brings us back to the timestop rules:

While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.

Now, at this point I think there are a few viable options:

1) The readied action is lost, and the characters actions for that round are lost.
2) The disintegrate is lost, because the target is "invulnerable to your attacks and spells"

Personally, I would rule #2, because I think that's the right way to interpret it, and it doesn't hurt that it puts a bit of a penalty result on trying to abuse the rules.

 

[Infiniti2000]

No, this is where I think you have a flawed premise. The time stop doesn't end. Read the last sentence I quoted from the SRD above. The readied action occurs just before the time stop ends.

Then how do you respond to Hyp's comment? Re:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4558057-post9.html

 

[prospero63]

Then how do you respond to Hyp's comment? Re:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4558057-post9.html

If I understand it correctly, and forgive me but I've been awake for 40 hours or so right now, I think (s)he has a flawed premise as well. I think liberty has been taken with the "it is also possible to set a readied action to trigger 'as soon as a certain condition exists" statement. I don't believe that is a correct assumption, and the rest of the scenario requires an agreement that it is correct. The condition and the time the triggered action occur don't follow. Per the SRD "The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. Not "as soon as a condition exists" but "before the stated condition exists". Any condition that in any way is tied to the end of the spell is going to result in a failure of some fashion since by rule the readied action occurs first, and time stop makes everyone invulnerable to you.

Now, that doesn't mean that one couldn't tie the readied action to something else (i.e. the first time I see someone move) and have the readied action continued to be readied, per the SRD, "any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.". So it would be readied during the time stop, but would be taken after the time stop ends, at any time up to your next action, as the trigger condition stipulates (when they move).

At least that's what I think my tired mind thinks should happen.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If I understand it correctly, and forgive me but I've been awake for 40 hours or so right now, I think (s)he has a flawed premise as well. I think liberty has been taken with the "it is also possible to set a readied action to trigger 'as soon as a certain condition exists" statement. I don't believe that is a correct assumption, and the rest of the scenario requires an agreement that it is correct.

To be clear, what you are saying is that per your reading of the rules, a PC cannot "ready to shoot a crossbow at the first monster to come through the door." Let's say an orc is just around the corner while you have your action readied and comes through the door. If you're correct, then you shoot before the orc is even visible because it would necessarily occur before the orc's move action.

Your reading therefore fails a simple litmus test and we must look for an alternate interpretation lest we explode in a paradox.

 

[prospero63]

To be clear, what you are saying is that per your reading of the rules, a PC cannot "ready to shoot a crossbow at the first monster to come through the door." Let's say an orc is just around the corner while you have your action readied and comes through the door. If you're correct, then you shoot before the orc is even visible because it would necessarily occur before the orc's move action.

No, you misunderstand me. You can absolutely ready an action to take when a situation occurs. My point however is that the readied action occurs FIRST. Per the SRD:

The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

So if you were to say "I want to ready an action for when the spell ends" the problem with that is that the readied action occurs just before the action (in this case the spell ending) that triggers it.

Your reading therefore fails a simple litmus test and we must look for an alternate interpretation lest we explode in a paradox.

Paradox or not, it is what it is. I don't think anyone has claimed that the DnD rules remote resemble real life. Personally, I don't have a problem reconciling the situations, but I can certainly see how other folks could.

 

[Infiniti2000]

No, I don't misunderstand you at all. The readied action goes first, i.e. the PC fires the crossbow bolt before the orc comes through the door (on the other side around the corner). You therefore necessarily miss due to total cover.

Now, I believe it has been said that the word action in this case, from the rule you quoted, is not really clear. If it really does mean a combat action (i.e. move, standard, free, etc.), then things get wonky because now you can't interrupt anything. If not for explicit exceptions on counterspells or the concentration skill, you couldn't even interrupt a spell or spell-like ability.

So, anyway, is that the way you play it? Do you force the archer to shoot the bow at the unopened door because he must resolve his shot before the orc enters? If, instead you allow the archer to shoot the orc, then you must similarly allow the wizard to ready for the end of the time stop (unless that is not an actionable trigger, which would be a separate argument).

 

[prospero63]

No, I don't misunderstand you at all. The readied action goes first, i.e. the PC fires the crossbow bolt before the orc comes through the door (on the other side around the corner). You therefore necessarily miss due to total cover.

Yes, you clearly do.

Now, I believe it has been said that the word action in this case, from the rule you quoted, is not really clear. If it really does mean a combat action (i.e. move, standard, free, etc.), then things get wonky because now you can't interrupt anything. If not for explicit exceptions on counterspells or the concentration skill, you couldn't even interrupt a spell or spell-like ability.

So, anyway, is that the way you play it? Do you force the archer to shoot the bow at the unopened door because he must resolve his shot before the orc enters? If, instead you allow the archer to shoot the orc, then you must similarly allow the wizard to ready for the end of the time stop (unless that is not an actionable trigger, which would be a separate argument).

No, I don't. As I said, I have no problem reconciling the two. If someone tries to tie a readied action to the end of a time stop, it fails. If someone tries to shoot an orc before he comes through the door, they shoot the wall. If they ready an action for after the time stop, it works. If they ready an action for the first orc that comes through the door, they shoot the first orc that comes through the door. Personally, I find the whole paradox discussion silly.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, I'm not sure where we got confused (maybe it's just me), but I apologize for any misunderstandings. I have to admit I don't understand your position anymore, so I'm all for dropping it since I agree with your last paragraph.