Real world myths and legends: Who's Epic Level?

[ColonelHardisson]

Due to the fact that a 20th level character is already so INCREDIBLY superhuman that he's verging on a demigod, I say:

Noone.

Any mere hero from any legend could be reasonably handled using the existing system, or a reasonable extrapolation of it.
Well, not quite.

Oberon, from Roger Zelazny's Amber series, probably couldn't be handled, mainly because he's BOTH a consummate warrior AND a powerful sorceror... requiring a multiclass above 20th level.

I can't see needing any individual class levels over 20.

In the spirit of discussion, I'll disagree with you. It's really all a matter of perception - as you demonstrate with your assertion of Oberon as Epic level. He's the only character in the millennia of literature, myths, and legends that is over 20th level? And he only appeared in the last 30 years? I'm not saying you're wrong (in keeping with my own criteria for the discussion), I'm just pointing out that there is a lot of room for interpretation - that's why I created this thread. I'm sure that someone could rationalize how Oberon is no higher than, for example, 10th level, while others can rationlize him as 20+; I've seen this done with characters like Gandalf, for example. Again, though, you aren't wrong - I could rationalize how every legendary figure is no higher than 10th level. So it's just different viewpoints. But you do make a good point.

By the way, I wasn't all that clear about the basic premise of the thread - I was specifically talking about "Epic" in D&D terms, a la the book which will be coming out (hopefully), which details stuff available to characters over 20th level. A legendary or mythical figure can be an epic hero without being an Epic level hero.

Also, my own thoughts on comic book characters:

Epic:

Superman
Martian Manhunter
the Hulk
Galactus (well, more of a god in the Deities and Demigods sense)
Lobo


non-Epic:

Spiderman
the Flash
Iron Man
Batman
the Human Torch

 

[ColonelHardisson]

James Bond is the epitome of the cinematic action hero. That's a good enough term to use, without adding more confusion as to whether he's "epic level" (whatever that means).

There is a book coming out called the Epic Level Handbook, which details character progression over 20th level.

 

[hong]

I heartily disagree. I want to see Krusk the 20th level barbarian alter the courses of two rivers with his bare hands.

Anyone can do that, using the move earth spell. Get a magic item, if necessary. In D&D, magic items are usually treated as extensions of their owners' will.

 

[hong]

There is a book coming out called the Epic Level Handbook, which details character progression over 20th level.

So?

To expand a bit: yes, I know. The fact that "epic level" can be arbitrarily defined as pertaining to characters with more than 20 levels of advancement doesn't make any difference. Trying to match up characters from myth, legend, history, or wherever, to an arbitrary scale of advancement is an exercise akin to counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

What about Simbad? Is he an Epic PC?

Well, Sinbad's a funny comedian, but I don't know about Epic level...

Kidding aside, I'd place Sinbad on my non-Epic list.

 

[Wolfspider]

Anyone can do that, using the move earth spell. Get a magic item, if necessary. In D&D, magic items are usually treated as extensions of their owners' will.

I specified with his bare hands, not with a magical item. And I don't know about magic items being an extension of their owners' wills. They often need activations words, and they can be taken away easy enough. They're not inherent abilities.

Krusk can even rage if he wants to. It'll be fun watching him clawing into the earth and flinging sods behind him. LOL!

 

[ColonelHardisson]

So?

Your earlier post seemed to indicate you were unsure of what I originally meant by Epic level. I mean Epic in the sense of what that book will cover: characters over 20th level.

 

[hong]

I specified with his bare hands, not with a magical item.

An arbitrary distinction, and one that overlooks the important role that magic items play at high levels in D&D. For all you know, Hercules may well have had such an item, but it was overlooked by those who chronicled his exploits.

And I don't know about magic items being an extension of their owners' wills. They often need activations words, and they can be taken away easy enough. They're not inherent abilities.

Another arbitrary distinction. If Arthur can have his munchy sword of sharpness, then my 20th level character can have a magic item of move earth if he jolly well wants to.

 

[Frostmarrow]

The term "epic level" should not, IMO, be used as a synonym for "famous".

For sure, James Bond is more epic than famous?

I swiped this off of Microsoft's Encarta Online

Epic, long narrative poem, majestic both in theme and style. Epics deal with legendary or historical events of national or universal significance, involving action of broad sweep and grandeur. Most epics deal with the exploits of a single individual, thereby giving unity to the composition. Typically, an epic involves the introduction of supernatural forces that shape the action, conflict in the form of battles or other physical combat, and certain stylistic conventions: an invocation to the Muse, a formal statement of the theme, long lists of the protagonists involved, and set speeches couched in elevated language. Commonplace details of everyday life may appear, but they serve as background for the story, and are described in the same lofty style as the rest of the poem.

To me this is very James Bond-esque. James Bond's quests are always about saving the western world. There are lots of fights, explosions and gadgets. The gadgets represent the super-natural. A satellite in the sky threatens the world just as much as Zeus's thunderbolt. Moneypenny is JB's muse. M makes the formal statement of the theme. There are lots of stylistic conventions in James Bond's world ranging from his favorite drink, his way of introducing himself to the villains final speech and revelation of the masterplan.

Come to think of it; this makes Indiana Jones an epic level hero aswell.

But if you think epic level is a measure of hit points, than JB has lots of that too. Remember Bond fleeing from the St Petersburg archives being chased by scores of Russian soldiers armed with AK47s? If you don't, then just let me tell you that Bond makes it out of there alive.

 

[hong]

To me this is very James Bond-esque. James Bond's quests are always about saving the western world. There are lots of fights, explosions and gadgets. The gadgets represent the super-natural. A satellite in the sky threatens the world just as much as Zeus's thunderbolt. Moneypenny is JB's muse. M makes the formal statement of the theme. There are lots of stylistic conventions in James Bond's world ranging from his favorite drink, his way of introducing himself to the villains final speech and revelation of the masterplan.

Come to think of it; this makes Indiana Jones an epic level hero aswell.

All that this really means is that you don't have to be 21st level to save the world.