D&D 5E Really concerned about class design

[Mistwell]

I have a response to all of this; I just need a bit to write it up since I'm traveling.

Oh no, I gave you multiple opportunities to have a civil conversation about this topic and you were rude and stubborn and insulting and ego-centric repeatedly. I then gave you the last word, which you already took. No more bites at this apple. I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to someone else (who has respect for his peers and knows how to have an adult conversation and give and take about this topic). I have no interest in what you have to say about it anymore. Besides we all already know what you're going to say - every answer of yours will be a dismissive hand waive with a backhanded insult and you thumping your chest.

 

[ssvegeta555]

This thread in a nutshell....

 

[Einlanzer0]

Oh no, I gave you multiple opportunities to have a civil conversation about this topic and you were rude and stubborn and insulting and ego-centric repeatedly. I then gave you the last word, which you already took. No more bites at this apple. I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to someone else (who has respect for his peers and knows how to have an adult conversation and give and take about this topic). I have no interest in what you have to say about it anymore. Besides we all already know what you're going to say - every answer of yours will be a dismissive hand waive with a backhanded insult and you thumping your chest.

Really? That's funny. All I remember is you bombing into the thread with a ton of baggage and eye-rolling attempts at condescension.

You literally attacked me personally in your first post without even understanding my argument and without me attacking anyone beforehand.

You have issues with projection.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The lack of popularity of psionics in D&D is absolutely not for lack of trying on the part of the designers. And I say this as a huge fan of psionics.

I never got a sense of 'lack of popularity' - there's a few folks who just hate the idea (I was one of 'em, for a long time, and I never felt like I had that much company), and a lot of new-in-the-last-5-years folks who have never been exposed - rather, the sense I get is more "the Psion still isn't here, it must be unpopular, and, because it's unpopular, it shouldn't ever be added to the game, same with everything else that hasn't seen print yet."
Even if psionics were definitively less popular than whatever class came in last in the latest poll, 5e did not set out to exclude all but the largest plurality of it's fanbase.

Personally, I really don't see what all the debate is about. If the devs feel a new class is warranted or desired by the gaming community and will add to the enjoyment of the game, they will add it.

Unless they're afraid it'll provoke some segment of the fanbase to start edition warring against 5e the way they did 4e. That kind of controversy kills mainstream interest in nerdy/cult IP like D&D. It might be that D&D has enough momentum, now, to survive that, but, as gets said a lot in these threads: "now that I have what I want, why should WotC risk giving anyone else what they want?" ... well, or words to that effect.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

The lack of popularity of psionics in D&D is absolutely not for lack of trying on the part of the designers. And I say this as a huge fan of psionics.

At the same time, your description made me think about how hard it must be for a subsystem, even one that got a lot of setting support, to gain traction when each edition reinvents it instead of improving upon the previous version.

At this point, psionic fans are supporting an idea more than a set of concrete rules for playing. I think WotC could do better by trying to reimplement one of the previous systems, instead of creating the fifth version. I'm voting for a reimplementation of the AD&D 2e rules!

 

[Sacrosanct]

I think the problem psionics face in D&D is the same as guns face in D&D. The general population views psionics like sci fi, not fantasy. So outside of an outlier population of fans, it will never truly be part of core D&D. No matter how many times rules for it get published. And I think the results Jeremy was alluding to really back that up.

It doesn't mean psionics are bad, or people are badwrong for enjoying them. Just that it's generally associated with sci fi, and not high fantasy. That's the realm of magic.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The general population views psionics like sci fi, not fantasy. So outside of an outlier population of fans, it will never truly be part of core D&D. No matter how many times rules for it get published. And I think the results Jeremy was alluding to really back that up.
... that it's generally associated with sci fi, and not high fantasy. That's the realm of magic.

As nice as it is to have someone agreeing with my 1981-through-2011 self, it's a little funny to have finally relented on the issue, only to have it turned around so dramatically - it seems, even when I change sides, I end up still in the 'minority.' Before, it was always a very up-hill slog to try to make the point that psionics was a sci-fi bit and D&D was supposed to be Fantasy. I mean, "BARRIER PEAKS!!!!!" before the sentence was half out, "But! Darkover! Camber of Culdi! Psionics is totally magic, no, wait, Vance! D&D is totally sci-fi!"

...er… OK...

The only difference seems to be that, then, psionics was an official part of D&D, and now, it's been excluded for about 5 years.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I think it's fundamentally flawed to make a comparison by time frame. Why? Because the release schedule for 5e is much slower than in previous editions.

so let's look at a dedicated psionics class, and how long it took to find itself as an official class. Looking at products excluding adventures

2e: 15th product released (complete psionics handbook)
3e: 11th product released (psionics handbook)
4e: 49th product (PHB 3)
5e: 13 products so far

so when you look at it like that, it's not like 5e has forsaken the psion just because its 5 years in so far.

 

[Tony Vargas]

My argument about designing a base class is best summarized as: There should be a very high bar to clear before something is considered worthy of a base class.

That's not necessarily unfair, but all base classes would have to clear that same bar.

Any bar the hot-mess of the Ranger, unfocused mundanity of the Fighter, vanished niche-protection of the Rogue, desperate forced mechanical differentiation of the Sorcerer, cultural specificity of the Druid/Monk/Barbarian, and/or the doable-with-MCing Ranger or Paladin could clear, the Psion and Warlord soar over with yards to spare, the Artificer probably clears with little difficulty, and the Shaman at least has a shot at with a good running start. Also in the running, all the various 'Gish' classes, because, damn, the 5e Ranger brings that bar down.

But, I mean, if your point is that only classes not already 'in the bag' (the PH) need to clear that bar, by all means, make a compelling case for that double-standard.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think it's fundamentally flawed to make a comparison by time frame. Why? Because the release schedule for 5e is much slower than in previous editions.

5 years is 5 years.

It's not like 5e is going to release everything any given faster-release edition did, in the same order. It's not like any of us are getting any younger, either.

so let's look at a dedicated psionics class

Let's look at playable psionics, since we don't have that in 5e, after 5 years of waiting

, and how long it took to find itself as an official class. Looking at products excluding adventures
2e: 15th product released (complete psionics handbook)
3e: 11th product released (psionics handbook)
4e: 49th product (PHB 3)

26th book, by my count, even including little things like dungeon delve & races supplements. How did you double it? Include miniatures or something?

Also:

0e: 6th product released, Eldritch Wizardry Supplement III
1e: 2nd product released, Player's Handbook

5e: 13 products so far
so when you look at it like that, it's not like 5e has forsaken the psion just because its 5 years in so far.

5 years is 5 years. And, if Eberron, had also had the Psion, at product 13, that would have put 5e in the middle of the pack, as far as books in print before seeing psionics goes, between 3e and 2e, which, really, would be appropriate.

But 5 years is more than twice as long as any other edition took. 0e and 1e had even slower paces of publication, and they both had playable psionics, in print, a year or two in. Heck, if you don't count playable, 1e had psionics at launch.

Five Years. It's five years, no matter what how you handwave or misdirect or move the goalposts...

...and counting.