Reaper to produce pre-painted Plastic minis - Non-random

[Treebore]

Crazy CAt - I would like to point out that until the price of pewter went up about three years ago, the average Reaper mini was $1.25 per (I'm not sure of the pound conversion, but I know that's only a few pence (50-75??)). If the plastics are cheaper to produce, (Reaper is VERY concerned about price, they appologized for three months when they had to raise prices.), then I would imagine that, yes, they will be cheaper than metal, even with the paint job. Dwarven Forge does pre-painted resins that range from $1.66 per to $2.25 per, the detail is extremely fine (much better than any WotC scult) and the painting is really good for machine paint. If plastics are cheaper to produce than resins (and I believe they are - does anyone know for sure) then I can't see the figs going for more than $2 per, but I would think that the target price would be in the neighborhood of $0.75 - $1 per (in bundels - individual pieces may be a little higher). If the price is much higher than that, then they will need to make the "rare" sculpts just to make any money.

As for what they can and can't make, they can sculpt anything, the naming is the problem. As an example, currently WotC is 'claiming' ownership of the Illithid name and the Beholder, however, the illithid is a rip off of the Cthullu spawn. It has already been stated that 'treants' and 'halflings' were use to by-pass the 'ents' and 'hobbits' from Tolkiens estate.
Dragons are non-propretary due to historical significance, you don't have to call it a "Blue Dragon", just because it's blue and a dragon, but if you would, there is no way to sue over it, it can't be liscenced in such a manor. As for the Demons and Devils, I am unsure if Balor or Pit Fiend are copyrighted, but Winged Demon or Scary Devil are not and of course Succubuss, Eryines and the like are classical Greek monsters and therefore, fair game.

I think the biggest effect these are gonna have is to deflate the prices of some of the 'rare' minis on the secondary market. Especially on certain monsters that were made 'rare' that are game staples, such as Trolls, Umber Hulks and Carrion Crawlers, that can run between $20-$50 for the Harbinger minis. Carrion Crawlers are usually seen in groups, I as a DM am not trying to pay $100 - $250 just for 5 low level monsters; if Rreaper can offer them at a better price, yes, I'll be getting them - if they can't, then I have to stick with the 'open and hope' method.

And as I said before, I'm still wondering if the recent WotC announcements about 'scenario packs' and 're-issues' are the "Oh crap!" measure taken to lessen the blow.

I've been waiting for the "reissues", they did it with Magic, so I was confident they were going to do it with the mini's. Sucks for collectors who want to sell, but its great for everyone else and WOTC's profit.

 

[Felon]

IOW, you prefer to buy dozens of booster packs to get the 6-12 orc warriors, skeleton archers, or zombie hoarde you need for your game? More power to you, but I think you are very much alone in the minority here.....

See, this is what I was talking about at the start of this thread. Why do people speak as if the secondary market isn't worth consideration?

 

[Felon]

They don't really have to use the SRD. An orc is an orc of course of course.

D&D didn't create the orc. Sure, Reaper can stay at a basic level and crank out zombies and trolls. But can another developer go around making cloakers, umber hulks, and glabrezus and actually market them as cloakers, umber hulks, and glabrezus?

 

[Twowolves]

See, this is what I was talking about at the start of this thread. Why do people speak as if the secondary market isn't worth consideration?

Because, outside of eBay, there IS NO secondary market in most of the world. I live in a moderately large city with no less than 3 big universities/colleges in the immediate area, and I know of only one store that sells individual minis, and they only open 2-3 packs of each new set and sell what they get. Forget about looking for a specific figure, or heaven forbid, several of the same figure, regardless of rarity.

 

[Twowolves]

D&D didn't create the orc. Sure, Reaper can stay at a basic level and crank out zombies and trolls. But can another developer go around making cloakers, umber hulks, and glabrezus and actually market them as cloakers, umber hulks, and glabrezus?

Reaper already makes metal minis of cloakers, umber hulks and mind flayers (not sure about the glabrezu), they just don't call them that. And why would they have to? Since they are not random, you can see plainly "Hey, this 'Astral Fiend' looks exactly like the githyanki I need for next week's game! Cool!".

 

[Felon]

As for what they can and can't make, they can sculpt anything, the naming is the problem. As an example, currently WotC is 'claiming' ownership of the Illithid name and the Beholder, however, the illithid is a rip off of the Cthullu spawn. It has already been stated that 'treants' and 'halflings' were use to by-pass the 'ents' and 'hobbits' from Tolkiens estate.

The thing here is, product identity is not a cut-and-dried concept. When you copyright something like a fictional character or a monster in a game, there's a certain combination of features that make it your own unique creation. There is no easily-referenced legal documentation that universally establishes when someone has crossed the line and violates your copyright. If you think your copyright is violated, you have to sit down with your lawyer and point out all the critical points of similiarity between your creation and that of the infringing party and put all that in your cease-and-desist. It's really in the hands of whoever presides over your case to decide whether or not your case holds water.

Now, some companies have gotten away with questionable stuff over the years, and because they didn't get whammied by a C&D letter, people start thinking it's safe to say stuff like "see, here's an example where Reaper put out a miniature that was pretty clearly a D&D monster, so they can get away with anything as long as they change the name". But really the bottom line is how far the two parties involved feel like pursuing the issue. This is why I brought up the SRD. WotC has given folks permission to use cloakers in a certain capacity. I wonder if that capacity extends to creating minis, or if there's some specific language that limits their usage.

 

[Felon]

Because, outside of eBay, there IS NO secondary market in most of the world. I live in a moderately large city with no less than 3 big universities/colleges in the immediate area, and I know of only one store that sells individual minis, and they only open 2-3 packs of each new set and sell what they get. Forget about looking for a specific figure, or heaven forbid, several of the same figure, regardless of rarity.

There are other secondary markets, but they're also online. Clearly, you have access to the Internet, so again the question is why you'd dismiss them out-of-hand.

 

[Felon]

Reaper already makes metal minis of cloakers, umber hulks and mind flayers (not sure about the glabrezu), they just don't call them that. And why would they have to? Since they are not random, you can see plainly "Hey, this 'Astral Fiend' looks exactly like the githyanki I need for next week's game! Cool!".

You've answered your own question. You told me they produce cloakers and umber hulks, something I didn't know because they don't advertise them as such. Sure, you can "plainly see" if you're digging through blister packs and happen to stumble across one, but as someone who doesn't dig through blister packs I can tell you I've never stumbled across one. Calling them what they're intended to be is certainly advantageous from a marketing standpoint.

 

[Twowolves]

I'd summarise it better as I buy 2 cases a set, because I can afford to as I have a good job and RPGs are a hobby on which I am happy to spend my money, and these 2 cases get me 192 minis - guaranteed to include 8 of each common (Orcs, Skeletons etc) and 2 or 3 each of each Uncommon, and 24 Rares - which I can keep or trade as I desire. Buying by the case I pay about $1.25 per mini on average (or less than £1.00) including shipping and handling.

There are 3 sets released per year - so I get 180 new mini sculpts each year and many multiples of the ones I need in bulk. The random packaging isn't a plus point that sells them to me on its own merit, its a factor that contributes to the DDM range being cheap and offering me many minis.

If Reaper can sell me minis for less than £1.00 each I'll be impressed - as the metal ones start (unpainted) at £2.50 here in the UK for a normal humanoid sculpt.

So, you get cases for how much exactly? You pay ~$200 for 8 orcs, plus 59 other sculpts you can trade around?

Let's say a DM is going to run Sons of Grummsh, an orc filled dungeon in which they actually suggest individual DDMs for the orcs found therein. What do you think MOST people would rather do, go buy 2 cases of each set to get enough orcs of the right type to use, or go buy 1-2 of Reaper's orc set? Do you honestly think that people who buy cases of each DDM release are really their target audience?

I think that 8 prepainted, good plastic sculpts of an orc warband for example priced at $20 is just about right. But I do agree that the price and quality of the sculpts/paintjobs is key, but isn't that obvious? If it were $50 for 5 figs that are the same and all look horrid is not going to sell as well as $10 for 10 figs each in different sculpts with excellent paintjobs. I certainly don't think they are aiming for A) people who are already good at painting their metal minis line, nor B) people who play DDM skirmish, nor C) people who are willing to buy so many boosters/cases of DDMs that they don't have any complaints about the random distribution model. I'm guessing this will be a big enough market to make it work, given the fact that Reaper has a solid lineage of quality sculpts in a wide variety of types at prices that are still cheaper than, say, GW.

I for one am very excited by this prospect, despite the fact that I can paint pretty decently and I do own lots of DDMs already.

 

[Twowolves]

There are other secondary markets, but they're also online. Clearly, you have access to the Internet, so again the question is why you'd dismiss them out-of-hand.

1) Age. I'm old enough to have my own credit card, so ordering online is an option. Many D&D players are not and have limited access to an online secondary market.

2) Shipping. Worldwide players with access to the internet can be costed out of the secondary markets because of high shipping costs or no shipping available at all. Hence the WotC PDFs.

3) Rarity. If I want a secondary market beholder, I'm going to have to pay >$30, plus shipping. Or I can buy an "eye tyrant" and paint it myself for <$10, or perhaps get a prepainted one from Reaper for still less than online. Or, say, if I want 8 orc archers, I can just buy a prepainted pack, instead of having to dish out $7-$20 dollars for ONE, plus shipping, according to an eBay search. And since few of these guys have more than one for sale, that's $2-4 shipping for EACH. I'm counting the secondary online market out for this one, sorry.

You've answered your own question. You told me they produce cloakers and umber hulks, something I didn't know because they don't advertise them as such. Sure, you can "plainly see" if you're digging through blister packs and happen to stumble across one, but as someone who doesn't dig through blister packs I can tell you I've never stumbled across one. Calling them what they're intended to be is certainly advantageous from a marketing standpoint.

If you took 3 minutes to visit their website, you can do a search of their entire mini catalog and see what they have, and they don't limit the search criteria to names and catalog numbers. They have checkboxes for type, gender, number of legs, weapon uses, monster type, etc, IIRC. You don't have to search a wall of blister packs to find what you need. Of course, you could just flip through their catalog, which most vendors have right on the wall next to the figs.

The claim was they couldn't make "D&D specific" monsters, but they can and do. If they start to make them in prepainted plastic, it wouldn't be hard at all to see that they do have a Balor, they just call it something else, for example. Hell, they already have metal minis of Orcus, Demogorgon, and Dispater, as well as Hezrou, mimics, mind flayers, githyanki, myconids, hell hounds, etc etc etc. Are you really saying that if they don't market a mind flayer as an "illithid", no one will buy it, and the line will fail? I just don't agree, sorry. That's just like saying because a 3rd party d20 adventure doesn't have the D&D logo on the front, no one will know it's for D&D!