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Reaper to produce pre-painted Plastic minis - Non-random

carmachu

Explorer
I dont know yet. It depends on what they look like. If its AT-43 style thats great....if its like the D&D crap thats come out, I'll pass....
 

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Felon

First Post
Kheti sa-Menik said:
Because it isn't. This so called "secondary market" dpesn't really exist - it isn't economical, practical, or even viable. I went on some of these secondary sites...no one was selling a horde of orcs or a group of zombies, or large lots of kobolds or zombies.

The secondary market doesn't really exist.

You have obviously made little effort to explore your options. eBay shops that sell minis by the lot exist, and I many others have availed ourselves of them.
 

Kae'Yoss

First Post
Kheti sa-Menik said:
Because it isn't. This so called "secondary market" dpesn't really exist. The secondary market doesn't really exist.

Yeah right. And I just imagined buying those figures. I always wondered why I can't touch my new figures. Just look at them. They don't smell, and my hand goes right through. :p

Twowolves said:
1) Age. I'm old enough to have my own credit card, so ordering online is an option. Many D&D players are not and have limited access to an online secondary market.

That's a very good argument, the best I have seen against the secondary market yet.

Yes, a lot of people don't trust eBay or PayPal or credit cards, so they don't buy on the secondary market, but it's their choice and not really a problem of the market.

But there's people who can't get credit cards or eBay accounts or PayPal. The option just doesn't exist for them.

Glyfair said:
I know this isn't directly on your point, but am I the only DM who feels the best challenge for PC types are other PC types? As a DM I need lots of PC type figures?

I use a mix of monsters and characters. So as a DM, I need a lot more figures than the players - not only monsters (which players don't need), but also characters (which players only need very few of)

wayne62682 said:
If a figure, even a normal-sized one, is "Rare" then it sells for about $20 if not more. Twenty bucks for a small plastic figure with an amateur paintjob!

20 quid is quite expensive. But you only have to pay that for "chase figures", which are usually large or larger. The other ones usually go for 6-10 bucks - plus shipping, of course. And it's rare that the DDM stats make a figure a "chase figure".
 

Felon

First Post
Twowolves said:
1) Age. I'm old enough to have my own credit card, so ordering online is an option. Many D&D players are not and have limited access to an online secondary market.

2) Shipping. Worldwide players with access to the internet can be costed out of the secondary markets because of high shipping costs or no shipping available at all. Hence the WotC PDFs.

3) Rarity. If I want a secondary market beholder, I'm going to have to pay >$30, plus shipping. Or I can buy an "eye tyrant" and paint it myself for <$10, or perhaps get a prepainted one from Reaper for still less than online. Or, say, if I want 8 orc archers, I can just buy a prepainted pack, instead of having to dish out $7-$20 dollars for ONE, plus shipping, according to an eBay search. And since few of these guys have more than one for sale, that's $2-4 shipping for EACH. I'm counting the secondary online market out for this one, sorry.

Your comment that I initially responded to was about being stuck buying cases just to scrounge together 6-12 orcs, which is something you simply don't have to do thanks to the secondary market.

Now, in your rebuttal, items 1 & 2 only cover fringe demographics, so that seems like you're just being arguementative. You're old enough to buy the minis, and you don't live in Zimbabwe, so you're not among the disenfranchised, and in fact the majority of gamers are not, so for most folks the secondary market is perfectly practical. eBay shops abound, and not just for folks living in the U.S.

#3 is a more legitimate arguement, but there are tons of commons and uncommons out there ready to be scooped up for cheap, so $50 beholders or not, the secondary market still has plenty of utility. And again, you were talking about a squad of orcs.

Personally, I love the idea of what Reaper's doing and hope they do it right, but the majority of DDM minis are certainly attainable at reasonable prices without having to endure the annoyance of randomization.
 

Felon

First Post
Twowolves said:
1The claim was they couldn't make "D&D specific" monsters, but they can and do. If they start to make them in prepainted plastic, it wouldn't be hard at all to see that they do have a Balor, they just call it something else, for example. Hell, they already have metal minis of Orcus, Demogorgon, and Dispater, as well as Hezrou, mimics, mind flayers, githyanki, myconids, hell hounds, etc etc etc. Are you really saying that if they don't market a mind flayer as an "illithid", no one will buy it, and the line will fail? I just don't agree, sorry. That's just like saying because a 3rd party d20 adventure doesn't have the D&D logo on the front, no one will know it's for D&D!

You not seem to have grasped what I was saying in my posts, as I did not claim they couldn't make "D&D-specific" monsters. In fact, I pointed out that they have gotten away with taking some pretty heavy liberties. But I will say that if someone sees an announcement on ENWorld news that Reaper is releasing a mind flayer mini, that jumps out more than some pseudonym like "tentacle lord", and it's certainly easier to locate through a search engine.

Just as you seem unable to accept that "nobody would buy the mini" because they called it "brainsucker" instead of "illithid", I find any assertion that it wouldn't help their marketing at all to advertise it as an illithid to be a tad naive. I'd love to see if they have a mini that could serve as a phaerim, but I'm not going to eyeball their whole catalog just looking for that one critter that might or might not be there.
 
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Agamon

Adventurer
When I first read AoW while preparing to run it, I realized I'd need a lot more Lizardfolk than I had. It took less than a half-hour to find and pay for a dozen. Before that I had need for a lot of grimlocks and quagoths. That was no problem either.

I have to admit, I've never needed to go out and find a bunch of orcs or gnolls or goblins because I already have a bunch, more than I'd need at one time and lots of variety. Those common monsters have been easily found.
 

Felon

First Post
On a bit of a side tangent, there is a practical limit on how many critters are worth having on the battlefield at any one time. Eight is a good practical limit for kicking off most encounters. Far better to throw the initial handful and then have more show up in later rounds as reserves, in which case they can be pulled from the dead pile.
 

Thurbane

First Post
Kae'Yoss said:
Yes, a lot of people don't trust eBay or PayPal or credit cards, so they don't buy on the secondary market, but it's their choice and not really a problem of the market.
Well, not if you don't consider lost oppotunity for income a problem, I guess...
 

Endur

First Post
mhensley said:
No, it isn't. The equipment needed to produce plastic figures is much more expensive than what it used for metal ones. That's why usually only large companies like GW and WOTC produce plastic minis.

The GW figures are so much better than the WOTC figures. No comparison. Only drawback is that you have to paint the GW figures or hire someone to paint them for you.
 

Twowolves

First Post
Felon said:
You not seem to have grasped what I was saying in my posts, as I did not claim they couldn't make "D&D-specific" monsters. In fact, I pointed out that they have gotten away with taking some pretty heavy liberties. But I will say that if someone sees an announcement on ENWorld news that Reaper is releasing a mind flayer mini, that jumps out more than some pseudonym like "tentacle lord", and it's certainly easier to locate through a search engine.

Just as you seem unable to accept that "nobody would buy the mini" because they called it "brainsucker" instead of "illithid", I find any assertion that it wouldn't help their marketing at all to advertise it as an illithid to be a tad naive. I'd love to see if they have a mini that could serve as a phaerim, but I'm not going to eyeball their whole catalog just looking for that one critter that might or might not be there.

So, what exactly are you saying then? You claimed a 3rd party company couldn't make cloakers, mind flayers and glabrezu, and I pointed out that Reaper has, indeed, done just that without any sort of official license to do so. Would it help if they were able to market these minis under their "official" names? Probably, a little. But probably not enough to justify the expense of such a licensing deal. You then seem to posit that searching for a particular mini with a "generic" name is too much effort for most, despite the fact that A) retailers have Reaper catalogs right there next to the blisters (and often arrange them on the shelves numerically by catalog number, making finding a figure from the catalog very easy) and B) Reaper's website has a search engine that is descriptive and not keyed to a creature's name. Never mind the mind blowing concept of ASKING the guy behind the counter if they make a good generic phaerim (which, as far as I know, hasn't been released for DDM either, and if it was, would most assuredly be a rare).

You claim that you pointed out the fact that Reaper has gotten away with some pretty heavy liberties in their generic figure sculpts, but yet you also claim that you won't dig trhough blisters and didn't know about the cloaker or umber hulk? You chastised one poster for not looking hard enough for DDMs online regarding the secondary market, but yet you can't be bothered to use an online figure finder search engine yourself? Or to even ask someone at the game shop?

I hope the line does great. I have every confidence in these guys, and think they can do a good job and even though their initial release will be "gang" sets, I hope they branch out to the more unique set piece monsters. I doubt they will (big, flashy monsters are a big seller for their metal line, and prepainted mobs of cannon fodder fit the business model I think they are aiming for), but it'd be nice.
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
Felon said:
On a bit of a side tangent, there is a practical limit on how many critters are worth having on the battlefield at any one time. Eight is a good practical limit for kicking off most encounters. Far better to throw the initial handful and then have more show up in later rounds as reserves, in which case they can be pulled from the dead pile.

Indeed. Also, fighting multiple copies of a certain monster isn't always that fun or even playable -- five horned devils may sound like a fun encounter, but I defy you to actually keep track of every option those devils have access to. Most complex monsters simply aren't worth using with more than a pair, which also cuts down on needed miniatures. Personally, I try to get one copy of any large rare monster I really like, and then use blank GW bases to represent additional iterations of that same monster.
 

TheAuldGrump

First Post
Janaxstrus said:
If they release 40 a year (which was mentioned previously as what they do for metal), they'll be less then 25% as many as DDM. Which means they won't be "large selection".

I can't imagine they will be "ebay orc" cheap either. But we'll see in another 4 or so months I guess.
Err, the number is closer to 140 new miniatures a year, not including boxed sets. February saw ten releases, and some of those were multipacks....

The Auld Grump
 

bowbe

First Post
Kunimatyu said:
Indeed. Also, fighting multiple copies of a certain monster isn't always that fun or even playable -- five horned devils may sound like a fun encounter, but I defy you to actually keep track of every option those devils have access to. Most complex monsters simply aren't worth using with more than a pair, which also cuts down on needed miniatures. Personally, I try to get one copy of any large rare monster I really like, and then use blank GW bases to represent additional iterations of that same monster.


Defied!

I'm soo going to run that encounter the weekend after next. The party is a juiced up bunch of selfish 20th+ level characters. It should be fun! I probably have enough painted metal reaper figs to fill the bill too. I go big tho. I have 3 of their fire giants and 3-4 frost giants from them or varous sundry other companies. I've got like 4 fire elementals and 6 or more different painted trolls and as many different painted ogres. It's all good and its great when all that stuff is laid out on the table. The players Love that stuff even if they say they dont dig mini's. When you have your tiles, or terrain laid out, the figs in place and a big buncha buncha large enemies on the table, they dig it. Its better than pennies, poker chips and bottle caps. We had a titan in one ofour games a few weeks back, so I used a conan model from Mcfarlan's toy franchise to use as a stand in. Perfect.

I'm a huge HUGE fan of Reaper. Their sculpts kick butt and their company does too! Ron Hawkins the head of their Fantasy line is hands down the coolest guy in the RPG industry. Yes cooler than Monte... tho not cooler than Sue... but Sue isn't a guy.

I wish them the best of luck, because I totally need 100 more orcs to flesh out my 25 or so metal ones into a full blown horde of destruction. I need more gnolls, kobods, goblins and hobgoblins too.

I despise the WOTC kobolds. Crappy little lizard men. Most of their orc figs are equally crap-tastic. Their bugbears are WAY too small and look like early 80's wolverine dressed in not so glamorous paint. Their hobgoblins...awful. To their credit, WOTC stuff has gotten better.
:)

Case
 

ColonelHardisson

What? Me Worry?
thedungeondelver said:


Because plastic prepainted miniatures look like junk. Yeah, hey, a fighter with a sword that's bent into a "U" that I can't unbend? Yeah give me more of those!

Because plastic prepainted minis are nearly impossible to strip and repaint - at least ddm minis are. I threw simple green at them, alcohol, and my editor used oven cleaner. Nothing doing.

Because all Hasborg needs to do is twitch their little finger and change marketing tactics slightly and suddenly Reaper is stuck with a bunch of miniatures and a manufacturing process that they can't get rid of. When the LEGEND OF FIVE RINGS license went away, or the EXALTED license went away, big deal! They had a few metal molds in Texas they didn't need to use any more. If Reaper is "successful" and does pull a significant number of DDM fans away, a slight adjustment by the multibillion-dollar megacorp behind WotC is all that's required to put an end to the argument ("Sell them non-random, get these guys off our backs.") and suddenly Reaper's audience leaves. If Reaper is unsuccessful? Then they've shot themselves in the foot at the word "go".

It WILL detract from the metal minis. How can spending the bank on a new manufacturing and painting process not detract from metal minis? The money that would have (should have) been spent on the metal minis side of the house is now being put into plastic prepaints. I don't buy it for a second that this won't negatively impact the alloy minis. Not one second.

I see this beginning the end of either the Dark Heaven "RPG" line of minis. Maybe not now, and of course Reaper won't spin it that way. They'll pitch it that if you want a highly detailed character mini, buy one of their wonderful WarLord minis. If you want bulk monsters, then buy the pre-painted plastic ones!

This is just...I just can't see any good coming out of this whatsoever, I'm sorry.

You should have added "...if you're a fan of metal minis or like to strip and repaint minis yourself" at the end of your post. I'm not and I don't. I see nothing but good coming from this...depending on the price. I want sets of cheap minis that I don't have to search over Hell and half of Georgia to obtain the ones I want.
 

Glyfair

First Post
Treebore said:
Since I am confident I'll be as happy with their plastic line as I have been with their metal, I'm in for the ride. Plus I am sure their price point will be "competitive". The people at Reaper aren't stupid.
I agree they'll be competitive, but many here might not consider them so. I believe those who expect $1.00-$1.50 per mini are going to be disappointed.
Felon said:
If you think your copyright is violated, you have to sit down with your lawyer and point out all the critical points of similiarity between your creation and that of the infringing party and put all that in your cease-and-desist. It's really in the hands of whoever presides over your case to decide whether or not your case holds water.

Exactly. I doubt it's worth the time of WotC to worry about a "shades of gray" case from Reaper. That's especially true if they want to avoid creating bad feelings in some of their fan base.
Twowolves said:
If you took 3 minutes to visit their website, you can do a search of their entire mini catalog and see what they have, and they don't limit the search criteria to names and catalog numbers. They have checkboxes for type, gender, number of legs, weapon uses, monster type, etc, IIRC.

I doubt very many know they want to search for a "Bathalian" when they want a Mind Flayer, or "Stone Lurker" when they want a Roper unless they've seen the figure before. They might expect that an "Eye Beast" is a Beholder, a "Dung Beast" is an Otyugh if they see the name, but might not guess that when searching. Still, a few will be obvious (such as the "Cloak Fiend."
 

jdrakeh

Adventurer
Kunimatyu said:
Your hobby isn't dying, but it -is- changing. Will you change with it?

Change is anathema to many old school gaming fans. Such folks are simply unaccepting of the possibility that something postive may come from change. If anything is slowly killing our hobby, it't that kind of "line in the sand" closed-minded group think.
 

Felon

First Post
Twowolves said:
So, what exactly are you saying then? You claimed a 3rd party company couldn't make cloakers, mind flayers and glabrezu, and I pointed out that Reaper has, indeed, done just that without any sort of official license to do so. Would it help if they were able to market these minis under their "official" names? Probably, a little. But probably not enough to justify the expense of such a licensing deal.

Bingo! OK, good, right there, hold on for a sec!!!

See, I was pondering whether the language of the SRD obviated the need to strike any kind of licensing deal. Thanks to the SRD, you can use a cloaker in a D20 book without negotiation. My question was, does the same hold true for a cloaker mini?

That's all.
 

Felon

First Post
Kunimatyu said:
Indeed. Also, fighting multiple copies of a certain monster isn't always that fun or even playable -- five horned devils may sound like a fun encounter, but I defy you to actually keep track of every option those devils have access to. Most complex monsters simply aren't worth using with more than a pair, which also cuts down on needed miniatures.

True. Heck, fighting large groups of identical simple monsters isn't really worth it either. Fighting an army of orcs may sound cool, but either that party will have AoE attacks that will annihlate them in short order, or the battle quickly degenerates into a dull slog of dice-rolling.
 

Felon

First Post
bowbe said:
Defied!

I'm soo going to run that encounter the weekend after next. The party is a juiced up bunch of selfish 20th+ level characters. It should be fun! I probably have enough painted metal reaper figs to fill the bill too. I go big tho. I have 3 of their fire giants and 3-4 frost giants from them or varous sundry other companies. I've got like 4 fire elementals and 6 or more different painted trolls and as many different painted ogres. It's all good and its great when all that stuff is laid out on the table.

Note that we were specifically talking about fighting large groups of identical opponents. Sounds like you're lining up a nice menagrie there.
 

Glyfair

First Post
Felon said:
See, I was pondering whether the language of the SRD obviated the need to strike any kind of licensing deal. Thanks to the SRD, you can use a cloaker in a D20 book without negotiation. My question was, does the same hold true for a cloaker mini?

I remember some discussion early in the d20 period that the figure can match any description in the SRD. If it's a monster created for D&D than, any elements of a WotC/TSR picture you copy that aren't mentioned in the SRD is treading on very questionable ground.

I think this is less of an issue now, though. IIRC, at that time almost no descriptions were in the SRD. I think that's been corrected.
 

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