D&D 5E (2014) Reasonable Movement and Athletic Feats?

[Xeviat]

Oh, okay. (Sorry about the cross-editing.) I don’t think I’d want to get that granular. The running jumps require only that you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump, so they aren’t affected by how fast you’re moving. I don’t think I’d want to mess with that.

Well, since Str is coming into play with the Athletics check, it might not be needed to put Str into the base jump distance. Then the base jump distances could be based on speed. A faster person is still going to move that 10 feet faster than a slower character.

 

[Hriston]

Well, since Str is coming into play with the Athletics check, it might not be needed to put Str into the base jump distance. Then the base jump distances could be based on speed. A faster person is still going to move that 10 feet faster than a slower character.

Alright, but what I worked out is supposed to build off the base jump heights/distances. Remember the standing jumps don’t require any movement at all. A “faster” person could move that 10 feet faster theoretically, but what counts as faster, a higher speed or a higher Dexterity? Personally, I’d go with Dexterity for thematic considerations. Also, even if the “faster” character wants to move the 10 feet faster, there’s nothing in the current jumping rules that requires that they do so.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Do remember, there are "walking" competitions where people hold what would be move+dash speeds of 6 mph for, like, 8 hours. They're unencumbered and on smooth roads, but "double move" speeds are possible for a really long time. It's what humans are good at. Even I, with my childhood knee problems and my adult foot and knee problems can walk 6 mph for an hour easily.

Honestly, I find that VERY hard to believe. Most people who do a brisk walk can manage 4-5 mph for a while, but unless you practice/train for it or have great genetics for it... people get winded and have to slow down. Anyway...

Those initial rules for chases are WotC's, not mine. That is why I said,

Honestly, I think this is too low. First I would increase the number of rounds by your proficiency bonus if you have proficiency in Athletics. Second, I would change it to a DC 10 Constitution (Athletics) check to avoid the level of exhaustion.

With the changes I suggest, a CON +4 and proficiency +5 would always make the required check, never suffer exhaustion, and be able to move and dash indefinitely.

I think that covers your 8 hours and such.

 

[Xeviat]

Honestly, I find that VERY hard to believe. Most people who do a brisk walk can manage 4-5 mph for a while, but unless you practice/train for it or have great genetics for it... people get winded and have to slow down. Anyway...

Woops, typoed, it was 4; my high school was 4 miles from my house and I regularly hit that in an hour. I was training for track in middle school before the knee problems kicked in.

With the changes I suggest, a CON +4 and proficiency +5 would always make the required check, never suffer exhaustion, and be able to move and dash indefinitely.

I think that covers your 8 hours and such.

Yeah, if the DC doesn't scale with repeated checks, or the DC scaling is in brackets of time. I imagine ultra marathon runners suffer fatigue at some point. I can't imagine them not being fatigued (the condition) at the end of that; but then again there's some ridiculous long distance events I'm finding while researching for this thread.

Which I'll show a snapshot of in my next post.

 

[Xeviat]

3 mph is an average human walking speed, cited in numerous places. That comes to 26.4 feet per round (which is interesting, because Pathfinder 2 put human's base speed at 25; that system has a 3 action system, so a base run speed of like 9 mph, but no sprint action). This is taken from just observing people, so it's a mix of healthy and less healthy, various levels of carrying stuff, different shoes. I'm fine with D&D characters having 30 speed.

Jogging is 4 to 6 mph, so this is move+dash

12 mph run for short distances isn't ridiculous, but there's a lot less agreement on "average human sprinting speed", because average people don't really sprint a whole lot.

So, then I grabbed a bunch of records.

Records ( List of world records in athletics - Wikipedia )

Distance	time	MPH	Feet per Round (MPH x 8.8)	Multiplier (40 speed)
100 m	9.58	23.35	205	5.1
200 m	19.19	23.31	205	5.1
400 m	43.03	20.79	183	4.6
800 m	1:40.91	17.73	156	3.9
1000 m	2:11.96	16.95	149	3.7
1500 m	3:26.00	16.29	143	3.6
mile (1609 m)	3:43.13	16.13	142	3.5
2000 m	4:44.79	15.71	138	3.5
3000 m	7:20.67	15.22	134	3.3
5 km track	12:37.35	14.77	130	3.2
5 km road	12:51	14.51	128	3.2
10 km	26:24	14.12	124	3.1
1/2 marathon (21.1 km)	58:01	13.55	119	3.0
Marathon (42.2 km)	1:59:40.2	13.14	115	2.9
100 km	6:09:14	10.1	89	2.2

So, Usain Bolt holds the record for the 100 m and 200 m, and the 200 m is done in just over 3 rounds. I'm having a hard time finding it again, but I did find a graph of his acceleration, and it did take him a bit to reach his top speed of 28 mph, which he only held for a short while.

A 400 m isn't run at the same pace as the shorter sprints. You pace yourself and don't run as hard, but looking at the times it's only slightly more than double the time of the 200. The drop to the 800 isn't even as bad when you consider it's a full 400 m longer, but there is a drop.

It's also interesting to note the difference between the 5 km track and 5 km road is small; people are only seconds faster on the track than the road.

That speed is held for quite a while. The difference between 800 and 1500 are pretty small, and the difference between 2 km and 5 km, or between 5 km and 10 km are minor too. Certainly far less than would be a multiplier.

That 100 km ultramarathon allows stops to eat and drink, included in the time I believe, but that's someone holding a "double move" pace for hours. This is why I disagree with the chase system having such limited dashes.

We can probably assume that these folks all have the Mobile feat, so they have a base speed of 40. I also think we could assume the short distance sprinters could have a different feat compared to the long distance joggers.

3E had a run action for x4 speed, and a run feat for x5 speed. That actually gets us shockingly close.

So, since we're dealing with heroic characters who delve dungeons and fight dragons, not run races, where does this get us? What would an adventurer need sprinting for? I'd say it could go into a (better) charge feat. What would an adventurer need long distance running for? That could go into a (better) endurance feat (replacing the terribly worded Durable).

We could then allow for Monks and Rogues to keep their double dash/x3 movement, then have a run action (full round action, requires some athletics check), and then some kind of constitution save to fight off fatigue when going long distances.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Woops, typoed, it was 4; my high school was 4 miles from my house and I regularly hit that in an hour. I was training for track in middle school before the knee problems kicked in.

Yeah, if the DC doesn't scale with repeated checks, or the DC scaling is in brackets of time. I imagine ultra marathon runners suffer fatigue at some point. I can't imagine them not being fatigued (the condition) at the end of that; but then again there's some ridiculous long distance events I'm finding while researching for this thread.

Which I'll show a snapshot of in my next post.

Ok, the typo makes a lot more sense then.

Fatigue sets in of course, but with the crazy training and conditioning distance runners push through it. I ran cross-country my last two years of high school and first two years of college, in addition to my 9 years of track and field (4 high school, 5 college), so I understand how that conditioning makes running longer distances (and maintaining longer sprints) works.

I'll look at your other post after supper.

 

[DND_Reborn]

3 mph is an average human walking speed, cited in numerous places. That comes to 26.4 feet per round (which is interesting, because Pathfinder 2 put human's base speed at 25; that system has a 3 action system, so a base run speed of like 9 mph, but no sprint action). This is taken from just observing people, so it's a mix of healthy and less healthy, various levels of carrying stuff, different shoes. I'm fine with D&D characters having 30 speed.

Jogging is 4 to 6 mph, so this is move+dash

12 mph run for short distances isn't ridiculous, but there's a lot less agreement on "average human sprinting speed", because average people don't really sprint a whole lot.

{snip}

Yes, the chases rules in the DMG are extremely limited. I feel like whoever was responsible for that system really didn't do any research and just thought, "Well, that sounds okay."

Anyway, this is my spreadsheet on the multiples needed:

The yellow boxes highlight the closest results roughly near WR levels given a base speed 30. (Personally, I agree 25 is closer to what most people move, but whatever).

Now, first thing: Do you design this homebrew around the use of feats and other features to obtain WR or better speeds or use the base speed 30 and assume no other increase?

Second: If you design it around just the base 30 speed, will it bother you when it is used with increases due to feats, etc?

Third: Do you want a system that is very realistic, but probably complex, or maybe a bit off, but simple?

Fourth: Do you want to keep it in grid 5 ft. scale increments or allow more granularity down to 1 ft increments?

For myself, my answers would be:
1. No feats assumed or additional boosts to base speed by a feature.
2. No, it won't bother me (this is where you*can* get into truly heroic speeds).
3. I would rather it be a bit off but as simple as possible.
4. Keep it in 5-ft. increments.

So, I am thinking something along these lines:

Spoiler: Dash

When you take the dash action, you gain additional movement for the round. This increase is equal to your speed times your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in Athletics. If you do not have proficiency in Athletics, the increase is equal to your speed (as RAW).

(Note: maybe instead of proficiency, use the greater of STR mod and proficiency? That way a really strong low-level character can still move fairly quickly. Thoughts?)

Example. A fighter at level 1 has proficiency in Athletics, so would gain 60 feet by taking the dash action (30 x2), giving him a total of 90 feet.

Example. A Rogue at level 9 has proficiency in Athletics, so gains 120 feet (30 x 4), for a total of 150 feet of movement. If the rogue also uses his cunning action to dash as well, he could move 270 feet! (Much faster than needed for the WR 100-m sprint!). This is an example of truly "heroic" speeds.

Obviously with monks and rogues, you could get some pretty crazy speeds following this rule, but that seems to be the desire of the OP. The worse (best?) example off-hand would be a wood-elf Barbarian 5/ Monk 14 with proficiency in Athletics (+6) and Mobility (total Speed 80) after drinking a Potion of Speed and using Step of the Wind. This would result in a total movement of 1520 feet (80 base move + 480 action-dash +480 speed potion-dash + 480 SotW-bonus-aciton-dash) per round, or 253.3 ft/sec., or over 172 mph, or a 1.3-second 100-m sprint. (Is that super-heroic for enough people? )

(A special note about Expertise: IME people tend to think expertise doubles your proficiency bonus. This isn't quite true. It doubles your bonus when you make an ability check. My rule for dash does not involve making a check. So, even if you had expertise in athletics and your proficiency bonus is +3, the multiple would be 3, not 6!)

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yes, the chases rules in the DMG are extremely limited. I feel like whoever was responsible for that system really didn't do any research and just thought, "Well, that sounds okay."

Anyway, this is my spreadsheet on the multiples needed:
View attachment 118676

The yellow boxes highlight the closest results roughly near WR levels given a base speed 30. (Personally, I agree 25 is closer to what most people move, but whatever).

Now, first thing: Do you design this homebrew around the use of feats and other features to obtain WR or better speeds or use the base speed 30 and assume no other increase?

Second: If you design it around just the base 30 speed, will it bother you when it is used with increases due to feats, etc?

Third: Do you want a system that is very realistic, but probably complex, or maybe a bit off, but simple?

Fourth: Do you want to keep it in grid 5 ft. scale increments or allow more granularity down to 1 ft increments?

For myself, my answers would be:
1. No feats assumed or additional boosts to base speed by a feature.
2. No, it won't bother me (this is where you*can* get into truly heroic speeds).
3. I would rather it be a bit off but as simple as possible.
4. Keep it in 5-ft. increments.

So, I am thinking something along these lines:

Spoiler: Dash

When you take the dash action, you gain additional movement for the round. This increase is equal to your speed times your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in Athletics. If you do not have proficiency in Athletics, the increase is equal to your speed (as RAW).

(Note: maybe instead of proficiency, use the greater of STR mod and proficiency? That way a really strong low-level character can still move fairly quickly. Thoughts?)

Example. A fighter at level 1 has proficiency in Athletics, so would gain 60 feet by taking the dash action (30 x2), giving him a total of 90 feet.

Example. A Rogue at level 9 has proficiency in Athletics, so gains 120 feet (30 x 4), for a total of 150 feet of movement. If the rogue also uses his cunning action to dash as well, he could move 270 feet! (Much faster than needed for the WR 100-m sprint!). This is an example of truly "heroic" speeds.

Obviously with monks and rogues, you could get some pretty crazy speeds following this rule, but that seems to be the desire of the OP. The worse (best?) example off-hand would be a wood-elf Barbarian 5/ Monk 14 with proficiency in Athletics (+6) and Mobility (total Speed 80) after drinking a Potion of Speed and using Step of the Wind. This would result in a total movement of 1520 feet (80 base move + 480 action-dash +480 speed potion-dash + 480 SotW-bonus-aciton-dash) per round, or 253.3 ft/sec., or over 172 mph, or a 1.3-second 100-m sprint. (Is that super-heroic for enough people? )

(A special note about Expertise: IME people tend to think expertise doubles your proficiency bonus. This isn't quite true. It doubles your bonus when you make an ability check. My rule for dash does not involve making a check. So, even if you had expertise in athletics and your proficiency bonus is +3, the multiple would be 3, not 6!)

I’d say prof bonus if proficient in athletics, and higher of Dex or Strength.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I’d say prof bonus if proficient in athletics, and higher of Dex or Strength.

You could use DEX if you wanted, but I never would myself.

DEX is already to highly used in other aspects of the game, for one thing. Also, although DEX includes "agility, reflexes, and balance", reflexes isn't really the "speed" or "quickness" measure some people think. Quick movement is all about fast-twitch muscle-fibers, and that is STR. Lifting heavy weights, punching quickly, and sprinting are all fast-twitch, all "strength". I mean, there is a reason why world-class sprinters have muscular upper bodies as well as strong cores and muscular legs.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You could use DEX if you wanted, but I never would myself.

DEX is already to highly used in other aspects of the game, for one thing. Also, although DEX includes "agility, reflexes, and balance", reflexes isn't really the "speed" or "quickness" measure some people think. Quick movement is all about fast-twitch muscle-fibers, and that is STR. Lifting heavy weights, punching quickly, and sprinting are all fast-twitch, all "strength". I mean, there is a reason why world-class sprinters have muscular upper bodies as well as strong cores and muscular legs.

If everything that involves your musculature is strength, all movement is strength, and Dex is a meaningless stat that doesn’t even cover physical coordination.

So, I don’t buy that “fast-twitch muscle fibers [are] strength.”

Using only Strength for balance reasons, or simple personal preference, I’m fine with.