D&D 5E Reasons Why My Interest in 5e is Waning

[Trickster Spirit]

I guess, I want MORE rpg books, please link me to what their 5e plans are for the next... 6 months? Please! I can't wait to spend my money and all their products! They have .... one adventure yes? Did I miss something if I did , I completely apologize!

Heh, I hear what you're saying - but I think they've pretty much told us that the only thing on the docket in the next 6 months is going to be Princes of the Apocalypse. Sure, they could drop a surprise summer hardcover on us, but everything else they've released has been announced several months in advance, so I don't think they're quietly sitting on something just because - we'll have at least a few months lead time, and the fact that they've not announced anything else means you'll be waiting til fall at the earliest for more RPG products.

Which is fine by me, frankly - see above where people point out the schedule for Pathfinder's first six months. If you weren't interested in the adventure paths, the core books were basically it.

Oh yes the secrecy many of us are referring to are their PDF and plans for community licenses. Can you please link me where they talk about this other than "we're working on it". It's PDFs. Pretty much anyone who is anyone in the RPG industry has PDFs. It's BS that they do not, also guidelines for community to work with their material instead we get issued C and Ds and have to go through the back door with OGL material. Sucks. So i'll be waiting for the link I missed with all this information and where they have told us explicitly what they are doing. Thanks!

No links to anything other than "we're working on it", and until there's an announcement on either of those there won't be any more concrete information. I'm more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to community licensing, since they would be hush-hush about that until everything's announced (making 5E OGL, or even setting up some kind of approval process for more traditional licensing, will take a lot of legal hoop-jumping and has to be a tough sell internally), but honestly despite the fact that they've said they'd like to do electronic format stuff, I'm not expecting any PDFs at all. You're right, it's not hard at all to make happen if they wanted it to, which is why I'm convinced it's just not going to happen at all. Hopefully that's because they've got alternatives in mind (there are better formats than PDF out there - easier to search / navigate at the table, etc.), but quite possibly because someone higher-up at WotC legitimately does believe electronic formats make piracy too easy, which is stupid beyond words.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

Link to Original
5) Serious Lack of Digital Tools.

So, basically, you want to throw money at someone for "tools" that you don't actually need to play the game. Ok, fair enough. Odd, but to each their own I guess.

4) No PDFs (except for the basic game).

So, basically, you want to throw money at someone for PDF's that you don't actually need to play the game. Ok, fair enough. I can see the benefit of PDF's, but if they never existed I can't see it making a lick of difference in my enjoyment of 5e. *shrug*

3) Nothing Much to Look Forward To/Lack of Product Diversity.

So, basically, you want to throw money at someone for stuff you can create yourself. Got it. Yes, creating stuff takes time, but if you get the hang of writing for yourself, the amount of information you can have on a single page can *easily* equate to a dozen or two pages from a purchased adventure. I like modules as much as the next guy, but again...completely unnecessary for playing and enjoying 5e (or any RPG for that matter).

2) The Waiting.

So, basically, you want to throw money at someone else to do the "creativity and imagination" part of your campaign, and you want it NOW. Learn patience, and, oh, I don't know, write your own stuff? If you have no time to write anything for your campaign, scour the net for stuff. There is so much stuff out there (free or otherwise) that you would never be able to use it all if you played 12 hours every day for the rest of your life. "Waiting" isn't a dirty word.

1) No OGL (or some kind of compatible license).

So, basically, you want to throw money at someone else to do the "creativity and imagination" part. Didn't we cover that? Having or not having and OGL is irrelivent. You don't need one to create stuff for use with 5e D&D. And yes, you can say "Usable with 5th Edition D&D" right on the cover. All without an OGL. That said, OGL has almost become a brand unto itself, so I can see the benefit nowadays of having that on the cover or back.

So that is my reasons why my interest in D&D is waning right now. How is your interest in D&D 5e? Leave your thoughts in the comments below.

The only part I'm finding annoying about WotC and 5e is their more or less "Oh, no, we aren't focusing on any world. All worlds are viable, and we want it that way. Each DM chooses his own stuff. Um, hey, did you know we are only going to put out FR stuff though? How cool is that for diversity?". That shpoopy stuff really gets under my skin. I wish they'd just stop trying to perpetuate that lie and just come out and say "Play whatever you want, but we're only producing FR related stuff for the next year or two". Grrrr.

I don't know when the whole "we need to buy stuff to play this game" mentality came from...I suspect the middle or end of 2e, but it really got hammered into new players with 3e, is my guess. Back in my day (yeah, yeah...I'm old and have severe Crotchety-Grognarditis...an' git offfa my grass! ), we would create most of the stuff we played with/in. I had to save up my allowance for two weeks to buy a module (that's what adventures were called back in 1980). Once I had that module, it'd take us a week to play. And I'd then use it as a "base" for letting the PC's wander around and get into all sorts of adventurous trouble. The thing that drew me and my friends into RPG's was a couple of things: First, you had to be "smart" to play them; that kept all the metal heads, stoners, jocks, etc. away from us. Second, it took a lot of time to play...but playing for a long time didn't seem like it. Third, we could let our imaginations run wild! That was the biggest draw, that's for sure! And lastly, I learned so-o much from playing...far more than what school work was teaching me. When I was 14 or 15, I was using words like "nomenclature" and "verisimilitude". I knew the basics of how heat exhaustion worked, and what the first signs of hypothermia was. I learned about all sorts of animals, insects and whatnot. All because I looked them up at the library (pre-internet days, remember?). Taking all this with me into high school I excelled at pretty much anything creative; drawing, sculpting, essays, short stories, poetry, etc.

Why did I mention all that stuff? Simple. If I had simply just "threw money at someone else and had them do it for me", and had "instant gratification" for digital tools and PDF's....well, I would not be the (more or less) well-rounded and educated old fart that I am today. So, IMNSHO, by having a decidedly s-l-o-w production schedule, no PDF's, and no digital-tools...is a GOOD THING in terms of the health of 5e and the future of it's fans. I firmly believe that the "gotta have it NOW!" generation will benefit greatly from this state of affairs. They need to learn how to do stuff on their own (re: create their own), they need to appreciate the serenity of not having some electronic device demanding their attention every other second, and they will learn to enjoy the fruits of their endeavors and be proud of what they accomplished...not what they simply paid someone else to do for them.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Celtavian]

I agree with number three. I think the D&D group that surveyed the D&D population did so late in the product cycle and made a mistake when it comes to designing a release schedule. They claim D&D players want a slower release schedule. I think that is incorrect.

I think how it really works is more like the following:

1. New Edition Release: Massive interest and want for product.

2. New Releases are strongly desired: Books snapped up and things flying off the shelf.

3. Over-saturation after years of releases: The oversaturation that causes people to respond that they want fewer books kicks in...after literally hundreds of books.

This should have been something that internal numbers should have told the D&D team. On initial release and for the first few years D&D should have a constant stream of books to maintain and build interest, cutting back once they've built strong interest and investment in the game. After they have heavy game investment, they should slow releases to maintain the longevity of the game. I think they're missing the mark a bit doing slow releases so early in the product cycle. They will lose customers based on a lack of new material to keep them interested.

I still think Paizo's business model for RPG games is the better model. Monthly adventures or even bi-monthly with extra crunch and fluff is a superior model.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

So, basically, you want to throw money at someone else to do the "creativity and imagination" part.

Enough with the condescension, please. I've written hundreds of adventures and I'm busy writing a RPG right now. I don't want D&D books because I need them or because I lack imagination or creativity. I want them because I enjoy D&D and I want more. It's really not that hard to understand.

 

[Celtavian]

Plus:
All six parts of Council of Thieves
Book of the Damned—Volume 1: Princes of Darkness
Seekers of Secrets
Cities of Golarion
Classic Horrors Revisited
Dwarves of Golarion
Cheliax, Empire of Devils
Crypt of the Everflame

And a few more on the border of the six month mark.

People forget how great Paizo's business model is. It's why they did so well. It wasn't just about choosing to remain 3E. It was their execution and business model that really made them such a great company. They have a real vision for how to deliver the game to the fans that I hope WotC emulates a bit. Paizo built off D&D's success. Be nice to see WotC take some ideas from Paizo and build off their success, specifically adventure paths. I still miss being able to sift an Adventure Path module and take stuff from it I like whether a new monster, a new world area, or a villain or tailor the path to my tastes.

 

[pming]

Hiya

Enough with the condescension, please. I've written hundreds of adventures and I'm busy writing a RPG right now. I don't want D&D books because I need them or because I lack imagination or creativity. I want them because I enjoy D&D and I want more. It's really not that hard to understand.

I'm not trying to be condescending, really. My point was that in the 5 reasons for loosing interest in 5e for the OP, it seemed to me to be obvious: he wants to spend money on 5e and can't. What I found perplexing was that this somehow made him feel "less interested" in 5e. That mindset really boggles my mind. That the lack of something can cause someone to loose interest in something that doesn't require any support (re: rpg's).

I'm in the same boat with you; I've written hundreds of adventures over my 34+ years of DM'ing and I've written about half a dozen RPG systems (only two would I consider "complete enough to play"; and only one "complete enough to publish"). I do it because I love writing and using my imagination. I also would like to see more "old-school style" adventure modules; 32 pages, detached cover, black and white, no-nonsense interior. I like collecting them, reading them, mining them for little nuggets that get my creativity going in a different direction than I would have thought. However, the lack of those things in no way diminishes my enthusiasm for 5e. I just can not for the life of me see how lack of "stuff" would stop someone from playing a game that doesn't require any "stuff" to be produced.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Celtavian]

Enough with the condescension, please. I've written hundreds of adventures and I'm busy writing a RPG right now. I don't want D&D books because I need them or because I lack imagination or creativity. I want them because I enjoy D&D and I want more. It's really not that hard to understand.

Not to mention some of us work full time jobs and have other things going on in our lives that don't allow us the time to design everything from scratch. We like having the option to use a well-designed fantasy world with interesting and fun designed adventures. We trade money for time, so we can keep playing. Otherwise, some of us that are busy with kids, jobs, school, and the like wouldn't be able to play at all.

 

[PallyFire84]

There is a lot of things I want to say, so I am sorry for the wall of text.

I actually work in a communications field, and one of the major skills we work with is the ability to learn that what a person says and what that same person actually means most of the time are not the same thing.

Before I reply to the OP I want to just draw a quick analogy. I think of D&D and the different editions as a pickup truck, or really just a generic vehicle. The core rules form the engine, tires, drive train, and the frame. There is also a very basic set of dials and meters and such. The setting is the style, leather seats, color, etc. And the features added are just that, the features added.

I hear and understand the op's complaints. But what I really hear when I look at the bigger picture is "The new engine and car is nice. But I would like more features. I can install my old features I like. But its like putting my old 2000's ish corolla climate control into a brand new BMW." And that is a valid point of view. Valid of course does not mean *right* or *wrong* only that it is his point of view and just fine.

I hear a lot on this board saying "There are 40 years of adventures" etc... What I really hear is "Did you really ever even use that 8-ball shifting stick? it was nice! Yeah, i mean you have to make a bit of modifications, but it would fit nicely in your new car." It as well is a perfectly valid position to have.

That does not make them mutually exclusive.

I would ask this: What do we gain by adding another forgotten realms campaign book? Sure it might look nice, but are we propelling that setting any further along? Do we gain anything other than updated spell and monster stat blocks? A shiny blue paint job is nice. But it is still blue.

What I would like if I had blank slate and blank check would be a 3 month release schedule. Dont freak out. Hear me out.

Quarter 1 Month 1:
Release a campaign book, part 1. It should be a $50 supplement. Given 350 pages 175-200 should be player options such as new tie-in classes, spells, feats, additional paths for existing classes, etc. 100-125 should be the 1st part of the adventure. the last 25-50 should describe the setting. It can be forgotten realms, dark sun, whatever. But for GODS SAKE, lets ADD something to the setting. Im tired of adventuring in icewind dale, the ten towns, the sword coast, neverwinter. GO SOMEWHERE NEW.

Release a FREE 50ish page suppliment to update the overall setting and give some new direction for the setting, as well as provide guidance for running in older time settings of each setting (for example pre-post-or during spellplague).

Unearthed Arcana- In keeping with the theme of "pencil not pen" development, The next three months should be additional races, magic items, feats, etc that didnt make the book. Additionally, there might be guidance on how to adapt the campaign to different settings.

Quarter 1 Month 2 - Dungeon and Dragon Magazine. I can see a place for Dragon. However, with unearthed arcana and the new rules articles I cannot see it having a place right away. However dungeon has a major place here. Dungeon should become a tri-monthly (as in 1 per three months) suppliment that compliments whatever setting/theme they have. Im thinking 3 feature length adventures, and perhaps 2-3 side treks.

Q1M3 - No major releases, or perhaps this is when the MMO's drop their releases.

Q2M1 - Adventure Book, Part 2. This should be exclusively an adventure product. Perhaps a 100-150 page book for $35.

Unearthed Arcana - Should continue to support the new setting, revealing new locations, perhaps new mechanics, new major lore figures, additional monsters.

Q2M2 - Dungeon, part 2. Perhaps these adventures touch old locations.

Q2M3 - Let the dust settle.

Q3 - process starts over.

That would be my blank check sort of release schedule.

Now as for the OP's specific requests: I can see a place for each of these. Except the digital tools. I want the RPG to be a Tech-free zone so much as requirements go. ITs nice to hand-roll characters again. But thats my personal preference. In addition i would say, what I hear is "I want this system to be more sophisticated, NOW." My answer is, its coming. Sorry its not NOW, and I am sorry that it isnt evolving the way you want it to. But we dont know what the next adventure will look like. We dont know what the free content is going to look like. You have a VALID point. You want more content and you think it should be about now. I agree. New content should have been rolling last year. But thats just me.

There is only one gripe I really have is the people who say "the game is only out a few months." I am sorry. That is wholly factually incorrect. For those of us in the playtest we have been basically playing the 5e chassis for more than 2 years. Even if you only count "official" releases, starter set and PHB came out this time last year. That is when 5E released... That is when the game became playable by the masses. I am sorry, the MM and the DMG add much needed core mechanics to the game, but the GAME has been OUT AND PLAYABLE since PHB. And that was the POINT of PHB coming first. It is OVERDUE for more content. But we shouldnt begrudge the company for trying a new approach, and wading in slowly.

If your interest in 5e is dependent upon lots of new splatbooks really fast... well, then you are playing the wrong edition. Sorry. Not every company, not every product, not every expectation is going to be met perfectly every time. I hear your comments, and I accept them. But I am one of those people that doesnt really WANT 4 e all over again. Im a little excited with what I have and what is planned and seeing where this new direction is going.

 

[Jester David]

People forget how great Paizo's business model is. It's why they did so well. It wasn't just about choosing to remain 3E. It was their execution and business model that really made them such a great company. They have a real vision for how to deliver the game to the fans that I hope WotC emulates a bit. Paizo built off D&D's success. Be nice to see WotC take some ideas from Paizo and build off their success, specifically adventure paths. I still miss being able to sift an Adventure Path module and take stuff from it I like whether a new monster, a new world area, or a villain or tailor the path to my tastes.

I *was* a big fan of the Paizo model.
Then they went with monthly player companions, less necessary splatbooks, crunch heavy campaign books, and generally ramped up production to ridiculous levels. I was a big supporter of how they'd kept classes down in the game and how all the accessories seemed to feel into the needs of the Adventure Path line. But as Pathfinder has become bigger, this has drifted.

 

[Kramodlog]

I find it highly amusing that almost all complaints I ever see about people losing interest in 5E involve not actually playing the game.

Playing D&D is probably what a lot of people do the least and it has been like that for some time.

What you do with a D&D books is:

0) Sometimes research it.
1) Buy/sell it. For some it stops there with collection.
2) Read it.
3) Analyse it
4) Talk about it.
5) Prepare a game with some of its info.
6) Use some of that info in a game.

#6 is probably what happens the least. There is nothing wrong with that. But the rest, say reading and talking about it, still needs to be cattered to. Some want to read the new Forgotten Realms Campaign setting. Others want to theory craft the new fighter feats in Complete Sword User. Others just talk about how the Beholder art is awesome and the new history of beholders just rocks. Plus there is that satisfaction of buying the fresh new book. None of those can be done right now. This is what people are complaining about. At least in part.