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D&D 5E Reasons Why My Interest in 5e is Waning

chriton227

Explorer
Do you mean Greyhawk or Waterdeep here?

Greyhawk. [MENTION=53286]Lwaxy[/MENTION] had mentioned that things like magic item shops were part of the definition of FR, Greyhawk, and Eberron. [MENTION=907]Staffan[/MENTION] talked about the existence of such shops in 2e Waterdeep, and I chimed with how 2e Greyhawk had a very limited magical item market. I feel strongly that the magical item stores in various settings are an artifact of the mechanics of 3e, not part of the definition of most of the settings themselves. Eberron is a bit of a different beast, since it didn't exist until 3e, so the foundation of the setting is really built on the rules assumptions of 3e with regards to the availability of magic items. For FR and GH, the original campaigns were built on an assumption of more limited item availability (I think GH was more limited than FR being a lower magic feel to begin with), and the settings were forced to accommodate the how the assumptions changed with the advent of 3e.
 

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Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
Magic shops were scattered in various source books. The Magister, one of the first FR source book that was released (1988), had magical items who had prices in gp. Something you didn't see in 2e's DMG.

The 2e source book, The Forgotten Realms Adventures (the one with the woman riding a unicon), described many FR cities and NPCs in it. Many NPCs sold magical items and some cities had magic shop.

It is fair to say that the commerce of magical items has been present in the Realms for a long time. 3e took it to the next level and made it part of core for all settings. 5e taking away prices reminds me of our 2e days and the positive and negative elements that come with priceless items.
 
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Lwaxy

Cute but dangerous
I really only started playing official settings once 3e was out. So I'm connecting those settings with a wide availability of magic items, although in many of the games I played in or ran, the more powerful items were not as available as expected by the rules. And prices were really always a thing of availability and demand.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
This is a bit of a tangent, but: ...So anyway, I agree with you Mishihari, the initiative rules in the PHB leave something to be desired and I'm actively looking for alternatives.

I've started a thread on something I've been trying/evolving here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?416013-5e-Initiative-Tweak-Reactive-Initiative

What it's essentially evolved into is that an initiative roll is basically a Dexterity check with proficiency. And it's only really necessary in circumstances where the order of the completion of actions is important.

For example, attacking a spellcaster - did you strike them before they completed their spell or after?

Or

Did your killing blow land before your target strikes your ally?

Most of the circumstances revolve around preventing something from happening, or killing blows. In those particular circumstances you roll an initiative (or call it a reaction check) only between the opponents where it matters. Whoever wins completes their action first. Otherwise, initiative isn't needed and everything in each round occurs in the order that makes sense as you describe the scene.

Spells, conditions, and effects sometimes last a smidge longer or shorter, but it doesn't seem unrealistic nor problematic.

Ilbranteloth
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
The complexity would be depth of choices or less abstraction. So you would have different materials for armor, weapons, spells, more classes versus subclasses, or an equivalent of maneuvers for all martial classes to provide the same flexibility as spells. In regards to tactical depth I do not mind more static modifiers versus advantage/disadvantage. I did not like the craziness of 3E and any motion provoking an AOO, but 5E went too far to simplify it.

I love to tweak things, but as I've tried to add complexity to the system I'm finding that things are extremely well covered in the rules. With some additions and minor modifications it's easy to do. And I guess that's one reason why I love this ruleset so much, it's extremely easy to modify:

Grapple
Opposed STR check: Both are Grappled
Disadvantage on grapple check to use bonus action to:
Attack: with light weapon
Cast Spell
Choke DEX save or suffocating
Disarm/Grab defender has advantage if using both hands
Draw a Light Weapon
Move: ½ speed and drag opponent(s); full speed if target >= 2 sizes smaller
Pin/Restrain: both are restrained
Tackle: both are knocked prone
Throw: knock prone 5’ in any direction
Use Object or Item

and

Special Maneuvers
Attack with disadvantage
Impose condition until your next turn
Saving throw DC 8 + Attack modifier
Disarm/Grab: DEX save or drop item
Garrotte: DEX save or suffocating
Groin, Sap: CON save or incapacitated
Eyes: DEX save or blinded
Lasso, Net, Pull cloak/sack over head, Staple: DEX save or restrained
Sunder: DEX save or damage item
Trick Shot (Archery): See similar effects
Trip: DEX save or knocked prone

These are all based on existing mechanics and just add some options and color to the game. Part of why I've spelled them out in my campaign is to get away from the 'attack to kill everything' approach. Now the players have options that they might not have thought of. And I use them against the PCs too, which highlights their usefulness.

When the 2.5, 3, and 2.5 progression was happening, we dove right in and loved it. But I know that there were always circumstantial modifiers and such that we forgot to apply. With the 5th edition you can always add an in-between modifier:

If you have an edge in the circumstance, but not quite advantage, you get a +2 bonus. If you have been outsmarted, but not to the point where you have disadvantage, you have a -2 penalty.

Any other tweaking I've done is to fit the rules to my version of the Forgotten Realms. The vast majority (like disease, injuries, and poison, along with the ones presented above) are specifically to be able to model with the rules the actions and scenarios that I think are important to the story and story-telling nature of the game.

I have injuries because there's always somebody (even in the first two published adventures) who is too hurt to be able to help the party, or the king is at death's door due to disease or poison, etc. Nothing explains why nobody has bothered to come by with a 2nd level spell to fix the problem. My answer is that it's not a 2nd level spell problem, it's a 5th or 7th level spell problem and they are much harder to come by. The fact that you can cure a disease or neutralize poison, but not exhaustion at 2nd level doesn't make sense.

Hence a disease, injury and poison system that leverages the exhaustion system (and requires multiple 5th level spells to heal). Why the (tweaked) exhaustion system? Because despite its abstractness, the basic effects (symptoms) work well regardless of what causes those symptoms. I require 3 death saves to recover, one save per long rest (day). It effectively models a disease that can take weeks to worsen, improve, worsen again, and might even cause death. Severe injuries (like broken bones) also take lots of time to recover from. These occur rarely, but can have a real and interesting impact.

But I think you'll find that the basic mechanics are very sound for making the game as complex as you'd like.

Ilbranteloth
 

PallyFire84

First Post
For God sakes guys. I am getting the feeling that you guys will find anything to bitch about in 5e.

One of the defining features of 5e is its loose approach to the rules. It gives guidelines. And part of those guidelines are creating and buying magical items.

And now I see you guys bitching that you don't have magic shops on every corner for fr and eb. And you are using that as a reason you have waining interest in 5e and/or are doing nothing less than demanding a new rules book from wizards.

Grow the hell up. Sack up and be a dm. If you want there to be magic shops MAKE THEM! Use the guidelines that I have seen at least one of you praise in another thread to manage your world's. Stop expecting wizards to solve all your issues and then whine that you "don't want to play 5e anymore because you just don't have the rules and support and just don't know if this system is going to hold your interest anymore" /sarcasm.

No wonder wizards is holding everything close to the vest now a days. It's easier to do that then risk "fans " picking them apart.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
They announce they're going to do PDFs for everything and they dropped it when 5e was launched (yes, they are still bringing out old PDFs, but waiting more than 6 months for a legal PDF of the PHB is simply not acceptable).

The question then becomes, sure Wizards wants 5e to stick around for a long time, but will that be true next year? Will upper management only see modest sales because the company only released 2 or 3 books all of 2015 and decide to license the name to video game manufacturers and forget this whole "RPG mess." We simply don't know.

I'll give my 2 cp in reverse...

I think the answer is yes, they intend to stick with this one for a long time. The reason I think that is that they spent a lot of time playtesting it to develop the system that would most satisfy those playing D&D. And I think a big part of this approach was because they realized that they made a lot of mistakes with the 4th edition.

Ironically, I think that part of the problem they are having is that they are communicating too much. They announced their intentions and all of the planned releases for the first 6 months quite early. In some cases, things didn't go as planned, like Morningstar. That's caused a lot of backlash.

Like any business decisions, they may find that they want to release more products, and increase it. I think that the decision to scale back has been done for a lot of reasons, but I also think that it makes some sense.

Now for the second part - what's the big deal with pdf's? Digital tools that allow you to purchase additional content and keep it in one place makes a ton of sense. That's a value-added approach to digital content. But a pdf copy of what you already have? It's nice, but not essential (and certainly far from unacceptable for them to not be released yet).

Something as simple as publishing a pdf can get complicated from a business standpoint. How much should they charge? It looks like you can get a Pathfinder pdf version for $10, but only as an add-on when you buy the book direct. What about if you buy it from Amazon? Your local hobby store? B&N? What if you don't want a hard copy? Whatever decision they do with is bound to be 'the wrong one' to somebody, but ultimately they have to come to a solution that makes sense from a business standpoint - that is, it doesn't cannibalize hard copy sales. Really, a real business case would be: it would generate additional sales from existing customers and generate sales to new customers.

Obviously, the business environment can change at any time. But from the looks of things so far I think that the 5th edition will be here for a long time.

Ilbranteloth
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
5e taking away prices reminds me of our 2e days and the positive and negative elements that come with priceless items.

What's wrong with the magic item prices on pg 135 of the DMG? Not to mention the Buying and Selling information below it?

Or has this already been covered? There are a lot of pages and tangent discussions in this thread.

Ilbranteloth
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
What's wrong with the magic item prices on pg 135 of the DMG? Not to mention the Buying and Selling information below it?

Or has this already been covered? There are a lot of pages and tangent discussions in this thread.

Ilbranteloth

I'm not sure what you are talking about. In the black cover DMG of second edition, at page 135, you get Dungeon Encounter Tables. At page 116 you get a mention of buying magical items. To quote from that section: "However, no magical stores exist."
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I'm not sure what you are talking about. In the black cover DMG of second edition, at page 135, you get Dungeon Encounter Tables. At page 116 you get a mention of buying magical items. To quote from that section: "However, no magical stores exist."

My response was referring to the 5th edition DMG which notes on pg 135 that the cost of magic items is based on their rarity. So 5th edition didn't take away prices, they just give ranges instead of calculating prices for every item as they did in the 3rd edition.

On the other hand, they aren't calling a lot of attention to pricing, buying, or selling magic items. At least not to the degree that the 3rd edition did.

Magic item prices were instituted in the 2nd Edition as well, in Encyclopedia Magica, Volumes 1-4. I don't know if this was the first place they were listed, but you're correct that they aren't listed in the DMG for both the 2nd and revised 2nd edition DM Guides.

Ilbranteloth
 

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