D&D 5E Reasons Why My Interest in 5e is Waning

[Kramodlog]

The discussion was about the 'fact' that the 5th edition doesn't provide magic item prices. But Pg 135 of the 5th edition DMG notes that the cost of magic items is based on their rarity. So 5th edition didn't take away prices, they just give ranges instead of calculating prices for every item as they did in the 3rd edition.

On the other hand, they aren't calling a lot of attention to pricing, buying, or selling magic items. At least not to the degree that the 3rd edition did.

Magic item prices were instituted in the 2nd Edition as well, in Encyclopedia Magica, Volumes 1-4. I don't know if this was the first place they were listed, but you're correct that they aren't listed in the DMG for both the 2nd and revised 2nd edition DM Guides.

Ilbranteloth

You missed some posts to put everything in context. The discussion was about magic item shops in the FR and how 5e's approach was conflicting with previous FR unofficial cannon on magic item availability. At least for some posters in this thread.

By unoficial cannon, I mean that even if the 2e's DMG magic item prices weren't present, prices of said items were present in FR supplements right from the start (like the 1988 The Magister supplement). Magic shops were mentioned in various FR products too, so magic shops were a thing in the FR even if the DMG said otherwise. For some it ment that the commerce of magical items is part of the FR experience. The way 5e does it is not satisfying for them. I understand what they mean.

You are correct that the Encyclopedia Magic priced everything magical items ever made (up to that point). I think at that point it was just to be coherant or to accomodate fans.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Yeah, I saw the stuff on the magic item shops. In my Realms they exist, but don't frequently have anything beyond most common items. Exceptions exist, obviously, but it's generally based on the particular campaign and story needs. In any event, pricing always fluctuates in my campaigns. I don't want to say no, they can't buy potions of whatever, but supply and demand makes a big difference for these types of things.

So the 5th edition chart is more than enough for what I need, and it actually makes things a bit easier since I don't have to look up every item when they want to buy it. Potion of healing? Common, check the table. +3 sword? Rare to Very Rare, check the table.

Actually, the way the magic item tables are laid out in the 5th edition, looking up prices would be more difficult. In the old days you'd go to the potion table, scroll table, ring table, etc. Now each type of item is spread across numerous tables. If you listed the GP value in each entry you'd have to flip through the book to find them alphabetically, instead of looking them up on one table.

Either way, my point is that the information is there, and hasn't been removed. It's just presented differently.

Ilbranteloth

 

[Kramodlog]

How it is presented can have impact on the game. It leads to a somewhat different relation to magical items and different relations between players and DMs. It forces DMs to make decisions. Whether that is good or bad is another debate. It also introduces the possibility of inconsistencies from one night to another and the potential of favoritism.

 

[MoonSong]

For God sakes guys. I am getting the feeling that you guys will find anything to bitch about in 5e.

One of the defining features of 5e is its loose approach to the rules. It gives guidelines. And part of those guidelines are creating and buying magical items.

And now I see you guys bitching that you don't have magic shops on every corner for fr and eb. And you are using that as a reason you have waining interest in 5e and/or are doing nothing less than demanding a new rules book from wizards.

What's wrong with the magic item prices on pg 135 of the DMG? Not to mention the Buying and Selling information below it?

Or has this already been covered? There are a lot of pages and tangent discussions in this thread.

Ilbranteloth

Not that the guidelines are bad, but they aren't enough when you desire to allow players to simply buy items without further fanfare -note those guidelines are only for selling, not for buying- and just want to keep it fair and not waste time on it that could be used actually playing what we are interested in -not to mention that rarity is only a function on which level some items become appropriate, but not a given measure of how useful they are relative to each other and how much they can wreak a campaign-. Not everybody just wants to make an adventure out of every mundane purchase, sometimes the point of the campaign is somewhere else.

How it is presented can have impact on the game. It leads to a somewhat different relation to magical items and different relations between players and DMs. It forces DMs to make decisions. Whether that is good or bad is another debate. It also introduces the possibility of inconsistencies from one night to another and the potential of favoritism.

This is my main worry with it. I don't want to play flavourites, I don't want to be inconsistent, and I'm not interested on micromanaging what the players do with their characters.

 

[Kramodlog]

This is my main worry with it. I don't want to play flavourites, I don't want to be inconsistent, and I'm not interested on micromanaging what the players do with their characters.

Random tables take care of that, but they create other problems. Like giving over/underpowered items to players or just useless ones no one wants. When there were no magical shops in D&D and the DMG was a stickler, they really made some treasures feel lame.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Not that the guidelines are bad, but they aren't enough when you desire to allow players to simply buy items without further fanfare -note those guidelines are only for selling, not for buying- and just want to keep it fair and not waste time on it that could be used actually playing what we are interested in -not to mention that rarity is only a function on which level some items become appropriate, but not a given measure of how useful they are relative to each other and how much they can wreak a campaign-. Not everybody just wants to make an adventure out of every mundane purchase, sometimes the point of the campaign is somewhere else.

This is my main worry with it. I don't want to play flavourites, I don't want to be inconsistent, and I'm not interested on micromanaging what the players do with their characters.

Yes, but the general guidelines are that you can sell any item for 1/2 its stated value. So it doesn't take much effort to double the prices given.

As far as consistency, I think that inconsistency in buying and selling magic items is quite acceptable. Sort of like buying and selling stuff on eBay. You never know what the market's going to be like that day. Totally appropriate.

We generally don't roleplay each shopping trip, although occasionally we do. It really depends on the circumstances. Sometimes they want to go through the process of shopping, in which case I'll randomly roll what's available where they are shopping. I go back to the older systems of a price modifier based on the size of the town and rarity of the item, so that modifies the prices listed in the DMG range. It takes a matter of seconds to price it out.

If they are looking for something specific, then we might just make some checks to determine if they find it, the results of any haggling, and how much time it took to find it. It's the same basic approach I use for downtime, they tell me what, if anything, they are trying to find/accomplish in the time they are in town, and I use a mix of tables and common sense along with story elements to determine the results.

As Goldomark noted (and it's mentioned in the rules as well), I never let the random rolls provide something inappropriate. But 'bad' rolls can create fantastic options for interesting situations. That +3 defender they just found for a steal? Well, it has a history, and possibly other effects. Maybe it's from a shady seller that lets you practice with it in the shop where you determine it's much easier to hit with. Your mage verifies it's magic. Even identify shows that it's a +3 defender. Perhaps it only works against certain types of weapons, or only in nonhostile situations. Or what it doesn't identify is that it was stolen and the original owner wants it back. And they are willing to take it by force. Let the PCs enjoy it for a battle or two, and then they meet the (appropriate level to own a +3 defender) prior owner.

Ilbranteloth

 

[Kramodlog]

The solution I prefere is to give more magical items and less gold. This way they earn items with more history than being on a shelve in a shop. You just need to be attentive to your players needs. The 3e guidelines on wealth per level really help balance thing out and were an improvement from 2e's contradictions and lack of guidelines.

 

[Zardnaar]

You missed some posts to put everything in context. The discussion was about magic item shops in the FR and how 5e's approach was conflicting with previous FR unofficial cannon on magic item availability. At least for some posters in this thread.

By unoficial cannon, I mean that even if the 2e's DMG magic item prices weren't present, prices of said items were present in FR supplements right from the start (like the 1988 The Magister supplement). Magic shops were mentioned in various FR products too, so magic shops were a thing in the FR even if the DMG said otherwise. For some it ment that the commerce of magical items is part of the FR experience. The way 5e does it is not satisfying for them. I understand what they mean.

You are correct that the Encyclopedia Magic priced everything magical items ever made (up to that point). I think at that point it was just to be coherant or to accomodate fans.

AD&D books generally said magic items are not for sale but if you want to sell them here is a guideline. Spells and Magic (2E) specifically said not to sell magic items.

Its not like you could buy on be in the right size town a'la 3E or create one in an hour in 4E.

 

[Belisarius76]

Link to Original

Back when 5e was first announced in 2012 I was incredibly thrilled. I loved the game all through the playtest, some iterations of it more than others, but we got the final game back in July of last year. Since then we have the Monster Manual, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and a two-part campaign. But my interest has fallen, my participation in my local Adventurer's League has become sporadic and I'm looking around at other games to play. So here are my Top 5 Reasons why my interest in the game is waning and what Wizards can do to fix it.

5) Serious Lack of Digital Tools. In this day and age where computers are everywhere, not having some kind of online character generation system is practically a sin. Having the basic rules of the game on a web page is a good first step, but it is not enough. It is kind of hard to accept a game that wants to be the flagship game of the industry that is technologically behind the times. I know this one takes time and personnel (two things the D&D team does not seem to have much of) to fix so it is at the bottom of the list.

4) No PDFs (except for the basic game). I split this one off from digital tools because that is how important this one is. I live on a computer of some sort or another almost constantly. What don't I carry with me: bookshelves. I want my whole library with me at all times and I have it on my tablet. Except for D&D. So if I am waiting for something, I can just pull out an electronic device and start reading. When I go to local conventions, if I like the game I just go to an online store, purchase it, and download it right there. I can't do that with D&D. This one is the easiest one to fix on the list. PDFs were already made of the books to ship off to the printer, and while I know it is a completely different layout for a PDF instead of a print book, it is still a starting point that other points on this list simply do not have.

3) Nothing Much to Look Forward To/Lack of Product Diversity. Of all of these, I think I am the most upset about this one. Folks at Wizards have said they want to focus on adventures. Ok fine. Where are they? To date, one came with the beginner's set and there was one campaign in two books. What if I don't want to play in that campaign? What if I want to play something else? The Tomb of Elemental Evil campaign is coming up; what if I don't want that either. What if I know my group can't handle a long campaign and instead want a series of short adventures with the same characters. There are no 32 page stand alone adventures to download, no dungeon magazine to subscribe to. That is game mastering help that the game seriously lacks right now. GMs not getting the help they need will make them look to other games. Personally, I have never been an adventure reader (some people are and more power to them). I have always been a setting reader. There is no setting material for this edition to read. I get a full campaign setting takes a long time to write. But what about a 32 page setting book that told what area is like for the Horde of the Dragon Queen campaign, or the Elemental Evil campaign. I might not run the adventures, but I can use the setting to make my own. Why not that? Without something to fuel my imagination, I am bored and am going to look elsewhere. Now lets have a frank discussion, Wizards has said they want to focus on adventures because releasing too many splat books (specifically books filled with player crunch options) made the system far too heavy for later development and killed it. While I understand that and to a degree agree, you've swung too far the other way. Some players at the table are those optimizers that do not have anything to look forward to and will look elsewhere. All in all, to keep the varying types of players and game masters happy, there has to be a balance. At present, there isn't any balance. All the products out there, beyond the core 3 books, are geared for the long-term GM.

2) The Waiting. Waiting is not something that our society does well these days and it does not look like it is going to change any time soon. I didn't even bother looking at the Fantasy Flight Star Wars game because it took them 2 years to publish a book on Jedi. I considered giving up on 13th Age but they finally released the PDFs this past December to physical books they released the previous January. You guys, the two and a half year wait from announcement to final game was perfectly fine because I was that excited for it. The wait from PHB to DMG is fine since you were publishing the system. Now that is all done with, I am done with waiting. What is coming? I want to know. 1 campaign isn't cutting it. Tell us what you are working on.

1) No OGL (or some kind of compatible license). The above points could be fixed if there was some kind of license for other companies to use. You could focus on long campaigns if other companies could write the short adventures. I could run my own game and invite those that do not play (and they would in turn buy the PHB) if I had some 5e compatible setting to keep my interest and could read it anywhere since I got it in PDF. Someone could even turn the rules into an app, meaning you don't have to. And best of all, I could have it now, to get me over the dry hump while I'm waiting for your book. Do you think that if I bought a compatible book on elves that I wouldn't largely ignore it, if not completely ignore it, when your book on elves comes out. But it gets me some racial development to cover the meantime. All the problems I see right now could be fixed with the rules being OGL. All of them. The worst part is that, you had over 2 years to prepare for the launch. You could have hand picked several publishers to release compatible books timed with your other releases for your game. But instead you wanted the initial time frame completely your own. And now I am looking elsewhere.

So that is my reasons why my interest in D&D is waning right now. How is your interest in D&D 5e? Leave your thoughts in the comments below.

Sounds like a general whinge sorry to say. I genuinely think you are just restless, you want stuff immediately no matter what by the sounds. You either embrace the game and become fully engrossed or you don't. I personally after a 17-18 year layouff, love 5e, it has far better mechanics than BECMI and AD&D 2e, better class & class specific combat options to spice it up (obviously taken from 3e, 3.5e and 4e, I have briefly looked at 3e & 3.5e and it's obviously where they had feats etc, which I never played with), I like the cantrip and spell system, it makes sense. I like the saving throw system, it finally makes sense globally and is easy to use based on common sense DRs, and also they've left it open ended to get heavy RPG in for those that want that, so you don't feel like you have to definitely do something. Overall I like it, I like the spacing of the products, it's fit well with my timeframes vs work.
I'll personally continue to support it, cause they've done a good job imao. Ive purchased all the core books, adventures and minis and look forward to running the remaining adventures beyond the starter set, been great fun, for myself and my friends

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Something as simple as publishing a pdf can get complicated from a business standpoint. How much should they charge?

Lots of RPG companies seem to have found ways to solve this conundrum.

I'll personally continue to support it, cause they've done a good job imao.

There is not much to support, which is part of the OP's point.