D&D General Recommendations for a "Witcher" style campaign

[toucanbuzz]

I'm toying with the idea of constructing a campaign around something with the feel of the Witcher...

If your players know the setting, or if you know it so well you can make it come to life for them, that's always a great idea.

Of course, given that most D&D modules are kind of "heroic" (and less depraved), most don't really fit this kind of mindset. I'd like to stick with 5th edition...

It's not the rules. D&D avoids too much dark in official modules because it wants to appeal generically to all audiences. Modules are like coloring books to me, a framework for me to mold them. My Curse of Strahd was far darker, for example, than the module. The rules can work just fine. What you'll want to do is setup limits on what races & classes/subtypes are allowed, and even changes to magic (e.g. limiting cantrips to a # per day).

If all your players know the Witcher setting, they might work with you on eliminating certain classes from the campaign, such as bards (there are bards, but only in the musical sense, probably more rogues), clerics, druids, paladins, sorcerers, and wizards (make all casters warlocks, mechanically, for example). From there, you can limit races down to the setting, knowing the rich history of the conflict between the human world and scoia'tael.

I am somewhat concerned, however, that even if I found the perfect module, or set of modules, that the tone would completely change once the party gets up in levels (probably around level 5), when the feel of it might change. So, I'd be interested in ideas around how to deal with that. I know there are a lot of variant rules, or rules adaptations that might be applicable there. So, also interested in hearing thoughts on that aspect as well.

You can slow character advancement, but otherwise, it's been the subject of much debate about the power creep of D&D into relative superheroes by the time 12th level or so rolls around. Personally, I'd slow advancement after 3rd level...a lot. In 3rd edition, there was a project to cap leveling at 6th, then apply minor benefits (e.g. extra hit points or an ability) each "level" thereafter. It kept things within reason for that edition. Doing that for 5E, beyond my pay grade.

 

[der_kluge]

The DM's Guide has some good details for gritty. You can also purchase The Witcher roleplaying game. The ruleset is clunky and almost not functional, but it will give you several ideas on character development, potions, etc. It might also give you an idea for creating classes that suit the setting. Lastly, I am not sure if there is one, but a campaign setting book would be a boon, even if it was just for NPCs.

I really like the setting; the limited creatures make them stand out, the cultures are distinct and the way magic is done is interesting. Good luck! Keep us informed how it goes.

Yea, I was thinking this yesterday - about how (outside of Nekkers, and maybe Cyclops), the monsters are very interesting. A lot of them are quite mysterious, and require finesse to take care of - either by removing some curse, rooting them out, or using magic to deal with them. Of course, a lot of the monsters are generally too terrifying for the general populace to deal with, which is why the setting has witchers. But a group of adventurers could be a decent substitute for witchers.

I just don't want the game to devolve into monster hunting, which is (more or less) what the Witcher is all about.

I think I'd be inclined to go through the MM (and other sources) to find a set of monsters that I felt like would work @BookTenTiger's suggestion about pig farmers sacrificing pigs to appease the vampire is, I think, right on point with this kind of thinking.

 

[der_kluge]

If your players know the setting, or if you know it so well you can make it come to life for them, that's always a great idea.

It's not the rules. D&D avoids too much dark in official modules because it wants to appeal generically to all audiences. Modules are like coloring books to me, a framework for me to mold them. My Curse of Strahd was far darker, for example, than the module. The rules can work just fine. What you'll want to do is setup limits on what races & classes/subtypes are allowed, and even changes to magic (e.g. limiting cantrips to a # per day).

If all your players know the Witcher setting, they might work with you on eliminating certain classes from the campaign, such as bards (there are bards, but only in the musical sense, probably more rogues), clerics, druids, paladins, sorcerers, and wizards (make all casters warlocks, mechanically, for example). From there, you can limit races down to the setting, knowing the rich history of the conflict between the human world and scoia'tael.

You can slow character advancement, but otherwise, it's been the subject of much debate about the power creep of D&D into relative superheroes by the time 12th level or so rolls around. Personally, I'd slow advancement after 3rd level...a lot. In 3rd edition, there was a project to cap leveling at 6th, then apply minor benefits (e.g. extra hit points or an ability) each "level" thereafter. It kept things within reason for that edition. Doing that for 5E, beyond my pay grade.

Yea, I'm thinking just eliminating certain classes is probably the lazy way of doing this. Fighter, rogue, bard, barbarian, ranger and paladin would be OK. Monk might work, but I tend to hate them, flavor-wise anyway.

Sorcerer or warlock could be justified, since it seems like they could exist just about anywhere, but I'm not sure they really work here, power-wise. Druid strikes me as a kind of NPC class in this context, as is wizard or sorcerer.

I'd probably also double the cost of weapons and armor (or maybe just equipment in general). And I think you start to get fairly close.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm toying with the idea of constructing a campaign around something with the feel of the Witcher. Specifically Velen. For people who aren't familiar, Velen is basically a despicable swampy land, where the people live in constant fear of monsters, abject poverty, hunger, corruption, bandits, disease, and just plain terribleness. In other words: a perfect place to adventure in!

Of course, given that most D&D modules are kind of "heroic" (and less depraved), most don't really fit this kind of mindset. I'd like to stick with 5th edition as my ruleset, but any edition or variant of D&D could be applicable here, since this seems to be the purview of old school, OSR, or other variant systems. They would be easy enough to convert, or adapt, anyway.

I am somewhat concerned, however, that even if I found the perfect module, or set of modules, that the tone would completely change once the party gets up in levels (probably around level 5), when the feel of it might change. So, I'd be interested in ideas around how to deal with that. I know there are a lot of variant rules, or rules adaptations that might be applicable there. So, also interested in hearing thoughts on that aspect as well.

We never got above 5th level in a short-lived Witcher game using 5e's rules, so I can't really comment on that. But there was a bunch of stuff I was doing behind the scenes that I think apply universally across a whole span of levels to evoke the right feel.

For starters, customize the enemies, introduce interesting powers and vulnerabilities that don't necessarily conform to existing monster stuff in 5e, and really think of monsters holistically. This video is a good starting point: Making Enemies in 5e Witchery.

Also, I highly recommend the Book of Beautiful Horrors by u/Regerem on Reddit. Outstanding resource for monsters from the Witcher world.

Finally, I made a thing you may (or may not) find helpful: Quickleaf's The Witcher Setting for 5th Edition. I get into some optional rules (both in the DMG and personal houserules) that I thought fit the setting well, how various races & classes fit into the setting, introduce a witcher class & variant sorcerer & variant spell-less ranger, some equipment, some factions, a lifepath, and a very incomplete DM section with monsters I converted and random notes.

 

[der_kluge]

God, I love the internet.

Me: "I want to do a thing"
Quickleaf: "Here's a 100+ page PDF, and multiple links on how to do that thing!"

Good god, man.

To be clear, I'm not interested in actually playing in that setting, or creating/using a witcher class. But that's an impressive amount of work, just the same. I'll definitely be using that for inspiration. That video is spot on, as well.

Thanks. That's a lot to go through.

 

[Quickleaf]

God, I love the internet.

It has its good days.

Me: "I want to do a thing"
Quickleaf: "Here's a 100+ page PDF, and multiple links on how to do that thing!"

Good god, man.

To be clear, I'm not interested in actually playing in that setting, or creating/using a witcher class. But that's an impressive amount of work, just the same. I'll definitely be using that for inspiration. That video is spot on, as well.

Thanks. That's a lot to go through.

Cheers! Happy Witchering!

 

[Horwath]

You can slow character advancement, but otherwise, it's been the subject of much debate about the power creep of D&D into relative superheroes by the time 12th level or so rolls around. Personally, I'd slow advancement after 3rd level...a lot. In 3rd edition, there was a project to cap leveling at 6th, then apply minor benefits (e.g. extra hit points or an ability) each "level" thereafter. It kept things within reason for that edition. Doing that for 5E, beyond my pay grade.

It's called 6E and you get a feat for every "level" after it. I believe it was every 4 or 5k XP for a feat.


for 5E, I would go with E9. As lots of 4th and 5th level spells were toned down and are fewer of them to cast.

9th level gives very nice boost for all classes(sublclasses),
you get +4 proficiency bonus, +8 for experties or +2 for some half-proficiency features. Nice +0, +2, +4, +8 scale.
full casters get 5th level spells, half-casters get 3rd level spells,

Then after that you can get extra ASI after whatever time you want or XP gained.
Instead of ASI you could get "levels" in second class but without gaining HPs: I.E. after 9 levels of lets say fighter, you can gain 1st level of wizard instead of extra ASI.
As an option, you can give extra HP if second class has more HP that 1st one. I.E. going fighter after 9 levels of wizard would gain you 4 HPs after getting 1st level of fighter(6->10 starting HP) and 2 HPs(4->6) every level after. Until you get to 9th level in fighter class.
Then if you want more HPs, raise levels in Barbarian for extra 2 HPs at 1st level and extra 1 HP every level after.

So, If your 9E character has 9 levels of wizard, 3 levels of barbarian and 2 levels of fighter, you would calculate HP as 3rd level barbarian, 2nd level fighter and 4th level wizard, that is; 12+7+7+6+6+4+4+4+4. 54 plus 9 times you CON mod.


as you will not gain extra HPs, prof bonuses or higher level features, extra level cannot be counted as a full level for calculating CR.

First extra 2 ASIs could be worth extra level, then 3 extra ASIs would be worth extra level. etc...
Basically, as you pile up feats and have primary and secondary stat at 20, tertiary stat at 20 is worth less for overall CR and you cannot use most of the feats at the same time. They add versatility, but not always direct power.

 

[TheSword]

To be clear Horwarth is talking about the Epic 6 rules. They are good in principle, however when we ran that system we found it became quite dissatisfying to no longer progress substantially (this was in pathfinder). It just took some of the fun out of the game.

My honest opinion if this is what you’re looking for, you’re best running a campaign expecting it to end at 9th level which it seems a lot of campaigns don’t get much further than that anyway.

For a Witcher style game I’d break it down into the following key areas.

- Myth: Everyone should have a rumour to tell and everything should have a rumour about it from the Beast of Bodwin to the Innkeepers wife. (At least one rumour should be that they’re the same person)

- Power does not equal Heroic: Adventurers are rare, and often not what they seem - sometimes worse than the problems they solve. Magic causes more problems than it solves and more elementals have been unleashed on the land by foolish/unscrupulous wizards than spells cast to help people. Sure the priest will heal your sick child but only if you convert to his extremely exacting faith and pay your tithe of 20% of everything you have (not much). The powerful (higher level) use that power to take advantage of people without it.

- Monsters: change the MM liberally. Really think about the ecology of monsters. Less is more. Pick the weirdest monsters and then make sure the party hear lots of rumour about them.

- Big Monsters: Take several of your favourites and make them legendary. Give them additional abilities - make it the most basilisky-basilisk, with a poisonous stench, creepy parasites that drop off its scales and attack, and an effluence that’s killing all the local livestock. Then allow lots of clues to help identify these creatures, give clues as how they can be defeated and much more. Investigation and Perception skills should be highly useful.

- Get Crafting: I’d allow PCs to use poison rules - particularly invented poisons to target certain creatures - wolfsbane reduction vs werewolves. Allow potions of resistance to be brewed with the right ingredients. Let knowledge nature lead to all sorts of discoveries.

- Make it Harsh: People are poor, scared and uneducated. Mainly because the rich, educated and confident go-getters have all left for elsewhere. When people haven’t got much what they do have becomes much more precious to them. People don’t have the luxury of heroism... that why they need true heroes. However don’t expect thanks, and don’t expect payment - beyond hospitality and local knowledge. People do what they can to survive and that means there’s a lot more neutral here than good. That self-interest in turn allows evil to thrive.

Consider using rules for slow healing, Lingering Injuries, and Massive Damage.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

One thing I'd like to mention is that (particularly in the books) The Witcher relies heavily on subverting fairytales and their tropes. So I'd recommend reading some of the Brothers Grimm (or even watching some classic Disney movies) for inspiration.

 

[Necrozius]

We never got above 5th level in a short-lived Witcher game using 5e's rules, so I can't really comment on that. But there was a bunch of stuff I was doing behind the scenes that I think apply universally across a whole span of levels to evoke the right feel.

For starters, customize the enemies, introduce interesting powers and vulnerabilities that don't necessarily conform to existing monster stuff in 5e, and really think of monsters holistically. This video is a good starting point: Making Enemies in 5e Witchery.

Also, I highly recommend the Book of Beautiful Horrors by u/Regerem on Reddit. Outstanding resource for monsters from the Witcher world.

Finally, I made a thing you may (or may not) find helpful: Quickleaf's The Witcher Setting for 5th Edition. I get into some optional rules (both in the DMG and personal houserules) that I thought fit the setting well, how various races & classes fit into the setting, introduce a witcher class & variant sorcerer & variant spell-less ranger, some equipment, some factions, a lifepath, and a very incomplete DM section with monsters I converted and random notes.

As an aside, I’m running a Witcher campaign right now with these resources and they are fantastic.

We’re also using the variant classes from Adventures in Middle Earth. It’s been fantastic so far.