D&D 5E (2014) Reconciling the different Magic the Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons Cosmologies

[Urriak Uruk]

EDIT: After reading the OP, I think the biggest issue that should be addressed is the difference in planeswalking and typical D&D magic. Planeswalkers travel through the Blind Eternities (or Aether) were horrible monsters reside (eldrazi). The process can drive you mad even (IIRC). So to me, that sounds most like the Far Realm. So I think planeswalking uses the Far Realm to bypass space time. However, this is very dangerous and only those with sparks, natives of the Far Realm or possibly gods can do it. However, the further you have to "travel" in the Far Realm to get to another world / plane the more dangerous it is or possible impossible.

It's a good point. I'd argue that many D&D worlds, like Greyhawk and Toril, have safe routes through the Phlogiston that make planar travel far easier, through safe routes like Spelljammer. But a world like Theros or Ravnica does not. The Phlogiston is a treacherous place to travel without the safe routes, and contains Dark Regions that no one returns from. So my explanation largely assumes that if you aren't Planeswalking, traveling through the Phlogiston will kill you or drive you insane.

So in this view, the Phlogiston = Blind Eternities. I especially like this, as the Blind Eternities is described as being filled with mana and Aether, which could be various forms of the highly flammable energy the Phlogiston is filled with.

Note, I'm not actually debating you in a "I'm right your wrong!" way, I'm just trying to justify my alternative idea. There really is no official justification for how these connect.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

For me the easy method is that the Great Wheel is a cosmology determined by "greybeards" or scholars from various planar hubs like Sigil and other places. It's the best system that they agreed on to fit together their disparate findings when trying to "map" the planes.

Like a scientific journal, there's a bunch of publications that establish the structure of the planes. Many are always proposing additions and modifications to the structure of the planes, leading to things occasionally getting reclassified like the Shadow Plane/Shadowfell becoming a full-fledged plane when previously it was listed as a demiplane (1e and 2e). The structure of the planes gets peer-reviewed often, with researchers/adventurers been sent out to confirm these theories on how the planes are structured.

 

[dave2008]

So this idea of mine just collects what has been said and tried to make an idea for how to make it work while changing very few assumptions.

It changes the assumption of how planeswalking works and doesn't e

It's a good point. I'd argue that many D&D worlds, like Greyhawk and Toril, have safe routes through the Phlogiston that make planar travel far easier, through safe routes like Spelljammer. But a world like Theros or Ravnica does not. The Phlogiston is a treacherous place to travel without the safe routes, and contains Dark Regions that no one returns from. So my explanation largely assumes that if you aren't Planeswalking, traveling through the Phlogiston will kill you or drive you insane.

So in this view, the Phlogiston = Blind Eternities. I especially like this, as the Blind Eternities is described as being filled with mana and Aether, which could be various forms of the highly flammable energy the Phlogiston is filled with.

View attachment 125886

Note, I'm not actually debating you in a "I'm right your wrong!" way, I'm just trying to justify my alternative idea. There really is no official justification for how these connect.

Ii admit the Phlogiston = Blind Eternities makes a lot of since. I personally rejected it for 2 reasosns:

1. We don't know if Phlogiston is a thing in 5e. As far as I know, there as been no mention of it yet.
2. I despise Phlogiston. My biggest gripe with Spelljamer is Phlogiston, but I will not get into that here. So if it is a "thing" in 5e, I will have to excise it and come up with a different explanation anyway.

Fundamentally there is little difference between: Far Realm = Blind Eternities & Phlogiston = Blind Eternities as conduits to travel to different worlds.

PS Neither am I trying to suggest their is a "right way." Even if there becomes and "official" way, that doesn't make it the right way for me and my group. Just a discussion of ideas. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Hexmage-EN]

I've only been into D&D since 3.5 and am not that knowledgeable about how things worked before. Maybe if I'd entered the hobby in the 90's when both Planescape and Spelljammer were connecting all the campaign settings I'd be more of a fan of the default 5E "the Great Wheel is the true cosmology" stance. Instead I started in a time period where Greyhawk was in the Great Wheel, the Forgotten Realms was in the World Tree, Eberron was in the Orrery, and Ghostwalk was in whatever its cosmology was called.

4E came along and put both the Points of Light setting and the Forgotten Realms in two different World Axis cosmologies. Apparently the World Axis cosmology was first created for the Forgotten Realms but became the cosmology for the Points of Light setting. Eberron kept the Orrery save for the addition of Baator. Dark Sun had very little info regarding its cosmology save for the Feywild, which was damaged due to the condition of Athas and had only small pockets of it left (Heroes of the Feywild would later contradict this by saying all worlds share the same Feywild, possibly an early example of how cosmology would work in 5E). The gods of each setting were said to be unique to that setting. The Bames of the Forgotten Realms and the World Axis were explicitly different, and I doubt the Asmodeus of the Forgotten Realms who killed Azuth, banished the Abyss to the Elemental Planes and inadvertently created the Elemental Chaos is the same being as the Asmodeus lived in a multiverse where the Elemental Chaos always existed and took a piece of the Heart of the Abyss to become both a god and the first devil by killing He Who Was.

Now in 5E the Great Wheel is the one true cosmology and its gods the true gods. The Orrery of Eberron is a mere pseudo-cosmology believed in by the ignorant, Ao is the Overgod of a single Material Plane (seriously, why don't the gods unionize and threaten to all leave Toril unless Ao gives into their demands?), and all the planes of Magic: The Gathering are part of a more elaborate pseudo-cosmology that is also truly just a small part of the Great Wheel cosmology that surrounds it (would M:tG fans coming into D&D really appreciate that Magic's planes are of inferior status to those of the Great Wheel?).

 

[dave2008]

Now in 5E the Great Wheel is the one true cosmology and its gods the true gods. The Orrery of Eberron is a mere pseudo-cosmology believed in by the ignorant, Ao is the Overgod of a single Material Plane (seriously, why don't the gods unionize and threaten to all leave Toril unless Ao gives into their demands?), and all the planes of Magic: The Gathering are part of a more elaborate pseudo-cosmology that is also truly just a small part of the Great Wheel cosmology that surrounds it (would M:tG fans coming into D&D really appreciate that Magic's planes are of inferior status to those of the Great Wheel?).

Actually, I don't think that is true. I believe they have been vague enough to allow multiple interpretations of "official" cosmology. Of course that matters about 0 for anyone at their gaming table (unless they want it too).

 

[TheSword]

Actually, I don't think that is true. I believe they have been vague enough to allow multiple interpretations of "official" cosmology. Of course that matters about 0 for anyone at their gaming table (unless they want it too).

Absolutely, there are at least two versions of the Realms Cosmology. The great wheel has been folded in as part of the Forgotten Realms default schtick but there DMG acknowledges alternatives.

I think people forget that the great wheel is theoretical. Each plane is infinite and linked in an endless number of ways. Yggdrasil and The River Styx being the most famous. These are just the ways mortals and the gods of mortals have made sense of the infinite and incomprehensible forces of the multiverse.

Its perfectly reasonable for things to not make sense.

 

[cbwjm]

There have been quite a few different cosmologies, Forgotten realms used the infinite staircase, the norse uses the great tree, greeks have their own cosmology. The dawn war seemed to touch everything in 4e, Athas being a world for which the gods lost the battle. I like keeping everything a little bit indistinct, even the greatest sages in Sigil don't know what's going on and none of the gods, the only ones who might have a clue about the planes, aren't telling any one what's what.

Ao is the Overgod of a single Material Plane (seriously, why don't the gods unionize and threaten to all leave Toril unless Ao gives into their demands?)

Where would they go and why would they think that threatening to leave would be an issue for Ao? He already cast them down once and from that, new gods arose to replace some of the old. I'm pretty sure he could find plenty of mortals who would be willing to take the place of the old gods.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Where would they go and why would they think that threatening to leave would be an issue for Ao? He already cast them down once and from that, new gods arose to replace some of the old. I'm pretty sure he could find plenty of mortals who would be willing to take the place of the old gods.

I'd just think that the gods of the Outer Planes (the evil ones in particular) who have presences in several Material Planes would be angry about being bossed around by someone who only has power in one Material Plane and be trying to find some way to undermine him.

Another thing: the Wall of the Faithless is a thing that explicitly affects only the dead of Toril. I understand the Wall is a very controversial subject, too. When the Realms had its own unique cosmology it was located in the Fugue Plane, but apparently now it's in Hades in the Great Wheel cosmology, so what's stopping a deity or deities who don't associate with the Realms and oppose the idea of the Wall from destroying the Wall of the Faithless? I'd assume in editions where the Realms had its own unique cosmology Ao was the Overgod in all planes, but if he's relegated to the Material Plane of Toril in 5E there's nothing he can do about what happens in the Outer Planes of the Great Wheel. It'd be better for him in 5E if he'd established a psuedo-cosmology like Eberron's to keep the Wall of the Faithless within his jurisdiction.

 

[cbwjm]

I'd just think that the gods of the Outer Planes (the evil ones in particular) who have presences in several Material Planes would be angry about being bossed around by someone who only has power in one Material Plane and be trying to find some way to undermine him.

Another thing: the Wall of the Faithless is a thing that explicitly affects only the dead of Toril. I understand the Wall is a very controversial subject, too. When the Realms had its own unique cosmology it was located in the Fugue Plane, but apparently now it's in Hades in the Great Wheel cosmology, so what's stopping a deity or deities who don't associate with the Realms and oppose the idea of the Wall from destroying the Wall of the Faithless? I'd assume in editions where the Realms had its own unique cosmology Ao was the Overgod in all planes, but if he's relegated to the Material Plane of Toril in 5E there's nothing he can do about what happens in the Outer Planes of the Great Wheel. It'd be better for him in 5E if he'd established a psuedo-cosmology like Eberron's to keep the Wall of the Faithless within his jurisdiction.

Honestly, I don't think Ao would even oppose the walls destruction in much the same way he didnt oppose its creation (though part of this may have been that Ao didn't exist at the time of writing the wall). Also, we don't really know the extent of hos power. For all we know, the realms of the gods on the outer planes are also within his purview.

 

[glass]

I am not an expert on the planes of Magic, but my understanding is that individual M:tG worlds can have their own local cosmologies with subplanes (Theros being an example I think). Assuming that I have not go the WEOTS, it makes more sense to me that the the Great Wheel be another such local cosmology within the greater whole rather than the other way around. With TGW being a plane in the Magic sense, and its various components the subplanes.

Also, if there anyone is interested in the Wall of the Faithless, there is a lively debate going on about it on RPGnet right now....

_
glass.