Vaalingrade
Legend
D20 Modern got it right with Allegiance and we all ignored it.
d20 Cassandra.
d20 Cassandra.
I blanket write off all batman alignment arguments. Every person who uses them takes from 12 different batmans to make their case.Speaking from personal experience...
I really don't think it will. It's just transforming one form of energy into another. Acrimonious debates about whether Batman is Lawful because he has a personal code and fights crime, or Chaotic because he works outside the system and distrusts any form of central authority that isn't himself, are more than ample evidence to me that Law and Chaos are just as fraught.
I appreciate the effort, but I dont think alignment needs to be more complex to satisfy folks.-----
Ah well. Thought it might be a neat idea for those still wanting the mechanical aspects of alignment.
I find that Law/Chaos is more fraught than Good/Evil. But that's the point of shifting to an "alignment = allegiance" model instead of "alignment = behavior." All you have to do is ask: Which side of the cosmic conflict between Law and Chaos has Batman cast his allegiance with?Speaking from personal experience...
I really don't think it will. It's just transforming one form of energy into another. Acrimonious debates about whether Batman is Lawful because he has a personal code and fights crime, or Chaotic because he works outside the system and distrusts any form of central authority that isn't himself, are more than ample evidence to me that Law and Chaos are just as fraught.
While I personally find this very interesting, I suspect a lot of folks who like alignment enough to want to keep it would have issues. That is, by making it so behavior explicitly and completely does not matter, you may have made it something other than what (many) fans would consider "alignment" to be.I find that Law/Chaos is more fraught than Good/Evil. But that's the point of shifting to an "alignment = allegiance" model instead of "alignment = behavior." All you have to do is ask: Which side of the cosmic conflict between Law and Chaos has Batman cast his allegiance with?
Presuming that "criminals and supervillains" are the DCU equivalent of cosmic Chaos, and "police and the Justice League" are Law, then Batman has certainly picked the latter. And that's all you need to know. He's Lawful. His behavior is irrelevant.
Now, anyone who makes the effort of picking a faction has a reason for doing so. Maybe you approve of that faction's goals, or you feel comfortable working within it, or all your friends are there... whatever. Furthermore, people tend to adapt themselves to the groups in which they live and work. Therefore, most people in the Law faction will exhibit "law-like" traits. But you'll also get the occasional "chaos-like" oddball who had some strange reason to hook up with Law. And likewise, Chaos will have a handful of "law-like" people who chose Chaos. I regard this as a feature rather than a bug--it adds a new dimension to the system and opens up cool RP options.
Then consider Monks being required to be Lawful in 3e despite the whole "drunken master" archetype, while Bards have to be Chaotic despite the rote memorization and practice required to do a goodly amount of performance art.I blanket write off all batman alignment arguments. Every person who uses them takes from 12 different batmans to make their case.
Alright.I appreciate the effort, but I dont think alignment needs to be more complex to satisfy folks.
I would go the other direction and give 10 options: LG, NG, CG, LN, TN, CN, LE, NE, CE, U. The classic 9 are tied to the four fundamental forces of Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil, with the Balance between them. Unaligned is for unintelligent beings and those who deliberately choose not to care. I can see the argument for avoiding PC's being unaligned, but choosing True Neutral is making a choice.The best thing (possibly the only good thing) that 4e did for alignment was the introduction of Unaligned. Add that to the existing nine alignments, and you cover both the 'active' and 'inactive' flavours of Neutrality.
That said, if I still used alignment I'd be strongly inclined to remove Neutral as an option for PCs - require them to pick a side!
(That would give eight options for alignment: LG, G, CG, L, C, LE, E, and CE.)
3E varied the alignments per class to try and shuffle parties up, and/or avoid some overpowered multiclass combos. On one hand, I like the idea of parties being varied, on the other, I am not in favor of tying abilities to strict behavioral adherences. Moving away from that trend is not something you will hear me protest.Then consider Monks being required to be Lawful in 3e despite the whole "drunken master" archetype, while Bards have to be Chaotic despite the rote memorization and practice required to do a goodly amount of performance art.
...which would be a great demonstration of how Law and Chaos can be controversial.3E varied the alignments per class to try and shuffle parties up, and/or avoid some overpowered multiclass combos. On one hand, I like the idea of parties being varied, on the other, I am not in favor of tying abilities to strict behavioral adherences. Moving away from that trend is not something you will hear me protest.
However, I'm not sure what a precludes a drunken monk from being lawful? Nor do I see why a chaotic person cant be disciplined?