Red Box: Some Constructive Criticism

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

other tough on this

I think this is a very good product, it explain things bit by bit and by showing,

the fact that it's not a complete game is a little bashed by the presence of the character builder demo FREE online, once you know what it is to play a pen and paper game and you want to go further you can find the char builder and get to level 3

the big problem to overcome in bringing new people to the hobby is in showing what the rpg pen and paper is

and this is done very well by the new red box

 

[Scribble]

As others have pointed out, the Dragon Age boxed set provides a lot more than 50% more gameplay for $30 (compared to the Red Box's $20). Also as others have said, the production value is higher: yes, it lacks battle maps and "fiddly bits," but it comes across as being higher quality. In addition, the layout is better, the game is presented in a reasonably straight-forward manner, and it's the complete system, even though the box only presents the first 5 levels. The biggest difference? The Dragon Age set has two 64 page books with real covers, rather than one 32-page book and one 64 page one without said covers.

But the thing that makes this comparison difficult for me is the way it's designed to segue into the rest of the game.

The Dragon Age boxed set is designed to segue into another boxed set, and then into another and another and then ultimately a 4th boxed set.

The Red Box is designed to segue from the starter set, into the full game (through the Essentials line.)

They're not really the same product. The DA Boxed set seems like it should be compared to the Essentials books, as opposed to the starter set because it's designed to be the first part of the actual game- not just an intro.

There are merits and flaws to each method.

If you're talking just price, for 60 bucks you get the red box, and then the complete essentials line as a player (a little more for a DM) as opposed to around 120 for D A.

But with the red box, you end up basically using the red box then pretty much abandoning it once you get the full game, as opposed to DA where you're buying into the full game but in chunks.

I think it's fair to debate whether the Dragon Age method of selling a game system in chunks is a better way to go then the essentials line (or the traditional PHB DMG MM Splat books line up.)

I just don't think comparing the first boxed set of the line to the starter set is a valid comparison. They're different beasts.

 

[Imaro]

But the thing that makes this comparison difficult for me is the way it's designed to segue into the rest of the game.

The Dragon Age boxed set is designed to segue into another boxed set, and then into another and another and then ultimately a 4th boxed set.

The Red Box is designed to segue from the starter set, into the full game (through the Essentials line.)

They're not really the same product. The DA Boxed set seems like it should be compared to the Essentials books, as opposed to the starter set because it's designed to be the first part of the actual game- not just an intro.

There are merits and flaws to each method.

If you're talking just price, for 60 bucks you get the red box, and then the complete essentials line as a player (a little more for a DM) as opposed to around 120 for D A.

But with the red box, you end up basically using the red box then pretty much abandoning it once you get the full game, as opposed to DA where you're buying into the full game but in chunks.

I think it's fair to debate whether the Dragon Age method of selling a game system in chunks is a better way to go then the essentials line (or the traditional PHB DMG MM Splat books line up.)

I just don't think comparing the first boxed set of the line to the starter set is a valid comparison. They're different beasts.

I think the real problem is that the DA boxed set is much closer to the original red box than what WotC is wrapping up in it currently. In the end though they are both starter sets for their respective games.

 

[Scribble]

I think the real problem is that the DA boxed set is much closer to the original red box than what WotC is wrapping up in it currently.

I agree with that.. Not sure about it being a problem, but yeah the DA boxed set is along the same lines as the original Red Box.

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

I think the real problem is that the DA boxed set is much closer to the original red box than what WotC is wrapping up in it currently. In the end though they are both starter sets for their respective games.

I think this is not the case, there is a bigger difference, the solo adventure

in the red box the solo adventure let you understand what is a pen and paper rpg w/out needing someone already in the know

then it let you be the dm for a group of friends

this is a big advantage in my opinion

if you don't dig in it you will never get to use the additional levels of play of dragon age, furthermore it's less gamey than the red box

 

[Imaro]

I think this is not the case, there is a bigger difference, the solo adventure

in the red box the solo adventure let you understand what is a pen and paper rpg w/out needing someone already in the know

then it let you be the dm for a group of friends

this is a big advantage in my opinion

if you don't dig in it you will never get to use the additional levels of play of dragon age, furthermore it's less gamey than the red box

Ok, I'll give you the choose your own adventure argument... but the original red box wasn't "gamey" (and Im assuming by gamey you mean full of tokens and maps and stuff). But again DA has more similarities that make up for that singular difference than WotC's new red box does. And yes, DA even includes an adventure.

 

[Scribble]

Ok, I'll give you the choose your own adventure argument... but the original red box wasn't "gamey" (and Im assuming by gamey you mean full of tokens and maps and stuff). But again DA has more similarities that make up for that singular difference than WotC's new red box does. And yes, DA even includes an adventure.

So then it just gets down to what's a better method of bringing people into the hobby I guess.

 

[JohnSnow]

But the thing that makes this comparison difficult for me is the way it's designed to segue into the rest of the game.

The Dragon Age boxed set is designed to segue into another boxed set, and then into another and another and then ultimately a 4th boxed set.

The Red Box is designed to segue from the starter set, into the full game (through the Essentials line.)

They're not really the same product. The DA Boxed set seems like it should be compared to the Essentials books, as opposed to the starter set because it's designed to be the first part of the actual game- not just an intro.

I disagree. Where the game goes AFTER the starter product is largely irrelevant to the design of the starter product itself.

Whether it's intended to segue to other boxes, to softcover books, or to hardcover books, a starter product is just that - a starter product. My contention is that the Dragon Age starter product is better than the WotC one. But, my real point is - so was the Red Box product 27 years ago!

Making this product for D&D isn't hard. I grant the "Choose your own adventure" solo intro is actually a great way to introduce the game, so kudos to WotC for THAT. But, the box would be soooo much better if the Player's Book were to acquire 32 more pages, and both the Player's Book and the Dungeon Master's Book were to acquire cardstock covers (this isn't crucial, just nice).

In those extra 32 pages, you could cover full character creation with race and class descriptions, ability tables, and equipment lists (including a reasonable selection of low-level "common" magic items). The DM's book can mention only the special items (uncommon and rare). And the game would be complete - for 2 levels (although it wouldn't be that hard to offer 3, 2 would be fine).

All of that would add only a couple bucks (32 pages in bulk can't be more than a 5¢ a page). But the added value to the box would be immeasurable. It would be a true "4e Red Box" - possibly even, dare I suggest, BETTER than the original. And it would still be better than the original in one crucial way - it would be fully compatible with the REST of 4e.

Boxed sets don't have to lead to boxed sets. What I'm hearing a lot of people say is that flaws in the box are acceptable because the Red Box is leading into books, not boxes. Alternatively, people keep responding with "Well, it is JUST a starter product."

Those are...interesting excuses. Starter products set brand perception. My point is that I believe the current Red Box will set a less than stellar impression in new players. The point of this thread was to list some ways I (or we) believed WotC could improve that impression.

So to those defending it, are you saying the new Red Box is perfect? No? Then what suggestions would YOU make?

 

[scruffygrognard]

...Starter products set brand perception. My point is that I believe the current Red Box will set a less than stellar impression in new players.

Couple this with the amount of errata in this boxed set and you've got a flawed, sometimes confusing, intro to D&D 4E. I think WotC could have done a much better job with this release.

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

snip

But, the box would be soooo much better if the Player's Book were to acquire 32 more pages, and both the Player's Book and the Dungeon Master's Book were to acquire cardstock covers (this isn't crucial, just nice).

In those extra 32 pages, you could cover full character creation with race and class descriptions, ability tables, and equipment lists (including a reasonable selection of low-level "common" magic items). The DM's book can mention only the special items (uncommon and rare). And the game would be complete - for 2 levels (although it wouldn't be that hard to offer 3, 2 would be fine).

All of that would add only a couple bucks (32 pages in bulk can't be more than a 5¢ a page). But the added value to the box would be immeasurable. It would be a true "4e Red Box" - possibly even, dare I suggest, BETTER than the original. And it would still be better than the original in one crucial way - it would be fully compatible with the REST of 4e.

I would have liked this

BUT it's not only the cost of 32 more pages

if you put rules for all this you should also put card for all this and then the price is going to rise

furthermore since the box send you to the wizard online site if you get there you are then hooked and you can just download the free character builder (which have magic item, rules up to 3rd level and so on)

so while I would have liked rules up to 3rd level and all that you list, maybe it would have been a little of an overkill

with the 2010 redbox you can
+create a character
+run and adventure for your friends
+experience the rising to 2nd level, overcoming traps and enemies and the like

this is the core of the D&D experience

we don't know how much more would have gone the price with the added rules and cards, and furthermore we don't know how much usefull this would be (I don't think that if you are not hooked with the first adventure you will eventually be with another 2-3)