D&D 5E reducing dominance of ranged: cantrips

[mellored]

The spellcaster of course meets the damage of the crossbow fighter without the need for feats. And given that the hand crossbow fighter is the highest martial damage dealing build in the game, it does seem a little off that the spellcaster can come close and even beat it for damage output.

And since the spellcaster can approach the damage of the fighter without feats, there is nothing stopping him from taking his first two levels as fighter. This gives him armor proficiency to close the AC gap. Alternatively, the spellcaster can take the toughness feat to close the HP gap.

The fighter get's 2 extra feats. So even after getting sharpshooter and crossbow expertise, he still has the same amount as the sorcerer. He also get's a second action surge at 17.

Edit: Actually the fighter has 3 more than the sorcerer, since warlock 2 prevents the feat at sorcerer 19.

And what stops the sorcerer from taking 2 levels of fighter he will loose 2 levels of spells and SP, as well as the 2 levels he lost with warlock. So he's 4 levels behind as a sorcerer, which cost him 15 quicken EB's, including his 9th level slot.

And yes, the spellcaster will need to spend many Spell slots to create Spell points to cast quickened spells, the spellcaster still has the option to use some big powerful spells for utility or combat, an option the archer does not. The ability to trade damage for utility should come with a cost, wouldn't you say?

There is.
-3 AC, -40 HP, limited ammo, no action surges, no battlemaster dice, and you don't get to reroll saves 3 times a day.

And it takes till level 17 to actaully get ahead. You won't have the SP, or the 4th beam, until then.

 

[guachi]

Hmmm

"There are always more experienced, trained people in a given profession than there are neophytes breaking into it."

Well... This is true. But what is an "experienced, trained person"? In 5e... might that be a level 3? Or level 5? There comes a point where it lowers again. There might be more sergeants than privates, but are there more special forces than raw recruits?

Also, most professionals don't have the attrition rate that adventuring does!

While I couldn't find the number of US personnel going through bootcamp at any one time, there are 70,000 people in US Special Forces. I'd think the answer to your question is, "Yes, there are more special forces than raw recruits" if you take "raw recruits" to be people in boot camp.

 

[mellored]

And because I like math... let's have a shoot out.

Dragons Sorcerer 18/warlock 2 (+2 cha, +2 cha, +2 cha, resilent Wis) totaling 20 cha, 14 dex (15 AC), 14 con (142 HP).
vs
Fighter 20 (+2 dex, +2 dex, +2 dex, sharpshooter, crossbow expertise, reslient Wis, toughness). totaling 20 dex (18 AC with plate), and 14 con (204 HP).

Dragon sorcerer attacks.
+11 vs 18 AC = 65%
(8d10 + 40) = 88
88 * .65 = 54.6
204 / 54.6 =
3.74 turns to kill the fighter.


Fighter attacks
+11+2-5 vs 15 AC = 65%
5d8 + 75 = 97.5
97.5 * .65 = 63.375
142 / 63.375 =
2.24 turns to kill the sorcerer.


That's a pretty clear winner, the fighter is best at fighting.

 

[Ashkelon]

And because I like math... let's have a shoot out.

Dragons Sorcerer 18/warlock 2 (+2 cha, +2 cha, +2 cha, resilent Wis) totaling 20 cha, 14 dex (15 AC), 14 con (142 HP).
vs
Fighter 20 (+2 dex, +2 dex, +2 dex, sharpshooter, crossbow expertise, reslient Wis, toughness). totaling 20 dex (18 AC with plate), and 14 con (204 HP).

Dragon sorcerer attacks.
+11 vs 18 AC = 65%
(8d10 + 40) = 88
88 * .65 = 54.6
204 / 54.6 =
3.74 turns to kill the fighter.


Fighter attacks
+11+2-5 vs 15 AC = 65%
5d8 + 75 = 97.5
97.5 * .65 = 63.375
142 / 63.375 =
2.24 turns to kill the sorcerer.


That's a pretty clear winner.

Umm you mean the sorcerer simply force cages +cloudkills the fighter and laughs that the fighter ever thought it had a chance? Or banishes the fighter? Or polymorphs into a CR 20 dragon and roflstomps the fighter. The real value of the sorcerer is not that he can meet the fighter for damage, it's that he can meet it when all the other options are inferior. Generally, battlefield control or mass AoE will have a much larger outcome on combat that single target damage. So typically single target damage will only be done as a last resort because it is the weakest use of the sorcerers action. But when situations arise in which damage is needed, the sorcerer can put out roughly the same amount as the best fighter build in the game.

Then again, maybe the sorcerer does want to actually use damage to win, so he decides to use an extended Foresight spell for advantage to all rolls while simultaneously giving the fighter disadvantage on his. The fighter fares much more poorly when all his attacks are made with disadvantage while the sorcerers are all made with advantage. An extended foresight lasts 16 hours, so basically the whole adventuring day. Oh, and don't forget about the shield Spell for +5 AC on top of all that. The sorcerer will have more than enough sorcerer points by this level to basically cast it any time he might be hit. And since the sorcerer has foresight and proficiency with Con saves, he should be easily able to maintain concentration on his hex Spell, giving each of his attacks +1d6 damage.

Let's us also forget the fact that in plate armor the fighter suffers a speed penalty so is slow as well because the archer lacks the necessary strength to wear plate unhindered. Realistically the archer will only have an 18 AC if he is an eldritch knight with mage armor. Otherwise he will only have a 17 AC. A half elf can easily start with 16 Dex, 16 Cha, and 14 Con, so is really only 1 AC behind the archer. Not 3.

In short, this comparison really isn't all that useful and doesn't actually prove much of anything.

 

[flametitan]

Umm you mean the sorcerer simply force cages +cloudkills the fighter and laughs that the fighter ever thought it had a chance? Or banishes the fighter? Or polymorphs into a CR 20 dragon and roflstomps the fighter.

Of those spells listed, the Sorcerer only has cloudkill and banishment, unless you went warlock 17/sorc3, in which case you can't have both foresight and true polymorph, and you'd lose cloudkill. EDIT: wish might work for forcecage, but you still can't polymorph into a dragon

 

[Ashkelon]

Of those spells listed, the Sorcerer only has cloudkill and banishment, unless you went warlock 17/sorc3, in which case you can't have both foresight and true polymorph, and you'd lose cloudkill. EDIT: wish might work for forcecage, but you still can't polymorph into a dragon

Hmm, you are totally right. For some reason I thought sorcerers had mostly the same spell list as wizards. Well, that definitely would make things harder for them.

 

[guachi]

Wouldn't you be unable to cast a cloudkill into the forcecage? I mean, the forcecage prevents spells being cast into it. So the area of affect of the cloudkill couldn't extend into the forcecage even if the center is outside the forcecage. Certainly, you could cast the cloudkill first and then the forcecage but in order for that to work the fighter would have to not move out of the area of effect of the cloudkill.

 

[flametitan]

Hmm, you are totally right. For some reason I thought sorcerers had mostly the same spell list as wizards. Well, that definitely would make things harder for them.

One of the biggest complaints I see about the sorcerer is that it's actually limited to mostly blasting. As you point out, it's a very good blaster, but you might run into walls trying to do what a wizard can do.

 

[guachi]

Sorcerers are also great with single target concentration spells because they can twin them.

 

[bid]

Umm you mean the sorcerer simply force cages +cloudkills the fighter and laughs that the fighter ever thought it had a chance? Or banishes the fighter? Or polymorphs into a CR 20 dragon and roflstomps the fighter.

But then he isn't using cantrips. Why would you need to nerf them?

The sorlock needs 7 cantrip castings to kill the fighter. About 4 rounds if he burns resources.
The fighter needs 7 hits to kill the sorlock. He has 9 shots with a single use of action surge. He can waste 2 SD on precision attack to show off.

And that's with the best MC possible. anything without agonizing blast would be limited to 4d8+5 against the 4d8+20 of a featless fighter.


This whole thread is a bad case of having a hammer in hand and wanting to use it like Orcs in Warhammer. Because one could just remove agonizing blast and call that non-existent issue solved.