Reflex saves & movement?

[Crothian]

Some of the things are a bit iffy. I say just use your best judgement. Some spells like the Wall of Ice is just makes sense.

 

[D'karr]

We aren't talking about fireball. We all agree about things like fireball. We are talking about things like Wall of Ice. That reflex save has to somehow get you on the other side of the ice or there is no point in making a save. If the monk curls up into a ball in the middle of the ice hemisphere, he has actually just failed his save!

The fact is that Fireball was mentioned on the original post.

The argument is that the rules were left vague for a reason. You cannot set up a system of guidelines that covers every single application of Evasion/Reflex Save vs. XYZ effect. Unless you were playing Rolemaster, of course.

There doesn't need to be a rule that specifies that you shift 5', 10', X' when confronted by an effect that requires a reflex save. The DM is left with the decision on what happened. The Wall of Ice might have come into effect as you were cocooning and your body was pushed to the edges. Whatever the explanation it doesn't need to be described in game mechanics terms.

 

[BeauNiddle]

Don't forget that rounds are continuous NOT DISCRETE. Its not a case of you move, I move, he moves, reset, etc. its a meta-game representation of continual time.

Just say that any movement the person does in the 'next' round is how they escaped the spell effect (and if they don't move, just blink and pretend they did )

 

[Artgeek]

There doesn't need to be a rule that specifies that you shift 5', 10', X' when confronted by an effect that requires a reflex save. The DM is left with the decision on what happened. The Wall of Ice might have come into effect as you were cocooning and your body was pushed to the edges. Whatever the explanation it doesn't need to be described in game mechanics terms.

Wow D'Karr, what a perfect answer. Reflex saves are "reflex" actions that save your character's butt. The character can simply drop down in the same square to avoid a lightning bolt, dive behind a table or other objest to avoid a fireball, or leap clear of a hemisphere of force (sliding across the smooth castle floor and crashing into a suit of armor against the wall) in the nick of time. The action may move the character or it may not. What is important is that the DM describe the action in an exciting way.

That's the way critical hits and fumbles work now. The character rolls a 20 and the DM describes the exceptional hit upon the enemy. If the character rolls a 1 the DM should describe the terrible screw up. You don't need set-in-stone rules, just use your imagination.

As far as movement goes, why penalize the character's movement for the round for PASSING a save? If characters can get an attack of opportunity as a free action in a round without penalizing their attacks later, why not let them do that cool tripple backflip out of the fireball's blast area.

 

[Urklore]

But what about if you are unconscious? Rules say you still get a reflex save, and if a high enough level rogue with evasion, you avoid the attack all together.

 

[graydoom]

I agree D'karr. There don't need to be game mechanics for stuff like this. Though there has never been a real stated policy for this, in all the games I've played we've just automatically handled it this way.

I like the idea of the monk dropping to the fetal position . Then triple-backflipping 20 feet out of the way!

On another side, a grim and gritty campaign might want rules for this. It would certainly make things more dangerous.

 

[Errant]

Just posting to say thanks to those who offered their views.

It seems to me Number47's approach is likely the defacto method of handling this issue, which makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Orco42]

I guess I am an evil DM....

For fireball and most other reflex saves I expect the character to move out of the area to avoid effect. So if someone with evasion is in a small room when the fireball goes off he only gets save for 1/2.

I do not count that movment against his total for the round.

 

[D'karr]

Unconcious Reflex

But what about if you are unconscious? Rules say you still get a reflex save, and if a high enough level rogue with evasion, you avoid the attack all together.

I'm not sure where the rules stipulate that you can make a reflex save while unconcious. I looked it up but could not find it. Could you give a reference on this.

Unconscious is defined in the PHB as unable to take any actions. I believe a reflex save would fall under that category. A fortitude save I might allow. A Will save is a tough maybe. A Reflex save is a no go.

In addition evasion as described in the PHB requires the rogue to be able to act (dodge). I don't think this evasion should be allowed if you were unconscious.