D&D 5E Regarding DMG, Starter Set and Essentials kit: Are they good for the starting DMs?

[FrogReaver]

Wait so this advice is objectively good but can only be understood in the context of the specific game? I have HEART and while I don't remember it making a big impression on me concerning GM'ing... I think I'll go re-read it for a refresher and so that I can speak to it with an informed opinion and reply a little later.

When you do will you please provide a few excerpts?

 

[hawkeyefan]

Wait so this advice is objectively good but can only be understood in the context of the specific game? I have HEART and while I don't remember it making a big impression on me concerning GM'ing... I think I'll go re-read it for a refresher and so that I can speak to it with an informed opinion and reply a little later.

I didn't say it was objectively good. I said they spent a few pages with specific advice aimed at new GMs, GMs who are new to story games versus more traditional games, and then GMs new to Heart specifically. The specific content isn't necessarily the point, just that the designers had the sense to realize that there are GMs of different skill level that are reading, and acknowledged that.

They're clearly labeled on pages 104 to 108, followed by advice specific to GMing Heart on 109 to 120.

Quick, go give it a read! Then come back here and site the book in an attempt to tell me that books don't help people learn!

I don't want a prescriptive game that tells me there is only one true way to run the game. That means there will be some options I ignore, no matter how well they are explained.

Yes, I know you don't want a prescriptive game. We get it.

Whether you specifically want to use an option or not doesn't really free the designers from having to explain an option. What if someone else wants to use the option? They don't get guidance because Oofta doesn't need it?

If someone questions an example, perhaps you could attempt to provide more details instead of just tell them to piss off.

The example was given. The Heart RPG does exactly what I said it does.

Sorry, but I’m never going to accept something solely on a random posters authority. I will also have my own thoughts about such examples. Just because someone has more context doesn’t mean they own the interpretation. As an example: after playing and reading blades in the dark I’ve found that others experiences with the game have been vastly different than mine (I’m not alone either). The text they quote to prove I’m playing it wrong or should be getting something else out of it doesn’t read that way to me at all.

I suspect that to be the case here - but I’m also open to the possibility that something is soo good and answers all my concerns that I could completely agree that the example is a completely better way.

I feel this is very telling. You already have a conclusion in mind. And your extra o in soo implies that no matter the quality of the advice, you're just going to pick it apart.

I have no idea if you play Blades in the Dark wrong or not. All I know is that your description of it sounds different from everyone I know who has played it.

Get the game. Read it yourself. Then play or run it. I mean, you guys have been arguing that there's no substitute for actual experience, right? Why do you think you can pick up a copy of a book, thumb through it once, and then have an understanding of people who've been playing the game for years?

Don't rely on others to explain things to you, and then act like you have firsthand knowledge.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

When you do will you please provide a few excerpts?

I aim intrigued by the idea that in a thread about, inter alia, Essentials, a kit that you can purchase for less than $17 online and for $20 list price at your FLGS, people are demanding that you purchase other games for the same money because they can't be bothered to use examples from the topic being discussed.

 

[Imaro]

If it's not needed, then don't bother with it. If it's needed, then actually explain it. Don't mention it without context.

I don't think this is some kind of radical take.

If it's a basic of adjudication for a DM it should be cited regardless of whether it's used or not used in a specific case. Going into detail for it can be saved for a later date however if it's not immediately applicable.

 

[Imaro]

I didn't say it was objectively good. I said they spent a few pages with specific advice aimed at new GMs, GMs who are new to story games versus more traditional games, and then GMs new to Heart specifically. The specific content isn't necessarily the point, just that the designers had the sense to realize that there are GMs of different skill level that are reading, and acknowledged that.

They're clearly labeled on pages 104 to 108, followed by advice specific to GMing Heart on 109 to 120.

Quick, go give it a read! Then come back here and site the book in an attempt to tell me that books don't help people learn!

Quick try and do damage control by misrepresenting (since I haven't stated it yet) and discrediting an opinion you made up on my behalf about something before I give it...

 

[FrogReaver]

I aim intrigued by the idea that in a thread about, inter alia, Essentials, a kit that you can purchase for less than $17 online and for $20 list price at your FLGS, people are demanding that you purchase other games for the same money because they can't be bothered to use examples from the topic being discussed.

1. Bring up games others aren't likely to own.
2. Demand they can't have an accurate opinion about the game unless they buy the game.
3. If they own the game or have read it (being a free game) then demand they can't have an accurate opinion if they don't play the game.
4. If they have played the game demand they can't have an accurate opinion of the game unless they have played it for a long time.

IMO, bringing such games into the discussion is about bringing in an air of authority so that whatever is said about those games cannot be disputed. If it was otherwise then IMO, examples showing where they were actually present would be readily provided.

 

[Imaro]

I aim intrigued by the idea that in a thread about, inter alia, Essentials, a kit that you can purchase for less than $17 online and for $20 list price at your FLGS, people are demanding that you purchase other games for the same money because they can't be bothered to use examples from the topic being discussed.

Not for the same money. Heart is a $50 226 pg rulebook. Don't get me wrong I honestly love The Spire and it's sister game HEART and heartily recommend both as great games... but this book isn't really comparable to the Essentials set. Also of note HEART doesn't include any type of introductory adventure for a beginning GM.

 

[Oofta]

1. Bring up games others aren't likely to own.
2. Demand they can't have an accurate opinion about the game unless they buy the game.
3. If they own the game or have read it (being a free game) then demand they can't have an accurate opinion if they don't play the game.
4. If they have played the game demand they can't have an accurate opinion of the game unless they have played it for a long time.

IMO, bringing such games into the discussion is about bringing in an air of authority so that whatever is said about those games cannot be disputed. If it was otherwise then IMO, examples showing where they were actually present would be readily provided.

Bringing in other games always feels like an appeal to authority, especially when detailed explanations are almost always lacking. I understand that it can be hard to explain how a rule affects gameplay, especially when that game's play loop and structure is significantly different. But if you say "X" is better you should be willing to back it up and clarify your answers. If you can't or aren't willing do that I see no reason to bring it into the conversation.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Bringing in other games always feels like an appeal to authority, especially when detailed explanations are almost always lacking. I understand that it can be hard to explain how a rule affects gameplay, especially when that game's play loop and structure is significantly different. But if you say "X" is better you should be willing to back it up and clarify your answers. If you can't or aren't willing do that I see no reason to bring it into the conversation.

Unless you have a typed transcript of the actual play of {obscure game}, don't you know that you can't possibly comment on what is in the 5e Dungeon Master's Guide?


....in fairness, since no one reads the DMG, perhaps the only way to understand it is to use examples from games no one plays?

 

[Imaro]

When you do will you please provide a few excerpts?

Here are some excerpts from the "If This is Your First Time Running an RPG" section... I'm not sure I'm a fan of how it lays all of the out-of -game responsibility definitively at the GM's feet (One of the problems of having a strong stance and a prescriptive slant). Also I don't think it's all that much better or more informative than the 5e advice... granted it is just the beginner advice (but we are stressing total new GM's in this thread and this would be where they start with advice in HEART). I'll post excerpts from the later sections shortly though.

"What follows is a run-down of the most
basic elements of being a GM; if you’re a dab hand
at it already, you can skip this section and move
on to the next one..."

You’re generally responsible for inviting play‐
ers to the game. You can choose people who you
already know and trust, or put out an open call on
a messageboard..

You’ll also be responsible for determining where
and when the game takes place. A lot of people run
their games out of cafes or pubs, especially if they
live in a major city and there’s one that’s easy to
reach for all players...

It’s your job to have the rules on hand and make
sure that players have access to them. It’s great if
players buy their own copy of the rulebook, but not
required... Make sure you have the correct dice too: a
few D4s, D6s, D8s, D12s and a handful of D10s.

During the game, you’re in charge of
everything aside from the actions that player
characters make. For the majority of the game,
this will function as a conversation between you
and the players. You’ll describe the world and act
as the non-player characters, the players will
react as their characters and you’ll react to that in
turn. You only need to break out the dice when a
character attempts something that might fail...

Once the dice have been rolled (see p. 8 for a
more detailed breakdown) it’s up to you to inter‐
pret the results, use any mechanics associated
with them (such as inflicting stress and checking
for fallout) and describe the results in the fiction of
the game. You’re the final arbiter of the rules and
events of the game, but feel free to ask the players
for advice and input if they can help you out.
You’re also in charge of the pacing of the game:
keeping the energy flowing over the course of a
session, giving players moments of high intens‐
ity, letting them relax, calling for a break and so
on...