D&D 5E Regarding DMG, Starter Set and Essentials kit: Are they good for the starting DMs?

Oofta

Legend
Supporter
Yeah, that’s what he said and why I was amazed. I think that’s a terrible approach to instruction, whether in a starter kit or a DMG or pretty much anything.
Where does it stop? Does every rule need an example? This is an incredibly minor thing and in context I think it's pretty easy to understand. But you can't have examples for every possible rule and in this case the problem is that people will look at the examples and think those examples are the rules. They do include some examples of options in the DMG under success at a cost. Is it useful? Maybe for some people, but they can only provide a few examples.

In any case I agree that they could. I just think people are setting up a strawman assuming that people don't understand basic concepts.
 

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I am quite certain that if you were to open up a book that was either an instructional manual or reference manual for any other hobby - much less any other human endeavour - there would be relevant subject matter examples. What's more, I am quite certain that any such manual would be almost-universally reckoned as badly written if it lacked them.

It's not as if other hobbies - or other things you can do as a hobby - are less open-ended than being a DM when it comes to creative expression writ large (even if some might be); nor are they practiced by people who lack the faculties to be DMs.

So suffice to say I find it perplexing that anyone would willfully argue against relevant subject matter examples in the DMG - for instance, subject matter examples on how to adjudicate situations in gameplay - and I don't find the arguments against presented thus far compelling. Such arguments seem to rest on the assumption that "being a DM" is a hobby that is sufficiently distinct from others that the reference manual for DMs somehow ought not to be written and organised in a manner comparable to a reference manual in literally every other hobby or activity that can be done as a hobby in the world.

All that is to say nothing of the fact that the DMG already has, without any apparent widespread controversy:
(a) how-to examples of doing DM stuff (creating a new subrace or race, both of which have fleshed-out examples, and creating a new background, which describes an example background in each step of the suggested process)
(b) example/fixed DCs for several adventuring tasks - foraging, tracking, and social interaction. However niche the first two might be in many games, the last is, strictly speaking, at the heart of what is ostensibly one of the pillars of gameplay!

(I wouldn't be surprised if there is more along this vein, but I don't care to flip through the DMG to find it.)



Now I come to think of it, it's also to say nothing of the fact that the PHB is for the most part written and structured in the way you would expect a reference manual for a hobby to be written and structured. To pick an example at random:

The section on ideals doesn't include any example ideals in and of itself - but that's all right, since every single background in the PHB includes example ideals, and the rule section on ideals refers to those ideals. What's more, that rule section does include examples of/guidance on what to think of to come up with an ideal: "Ideals might answer any of these questions: What are the principles that you will never betray? What would prompt you to make sacrifices? What drives you to act and guides your goals and ambitions? What is the single most important thing you strive for?"
 

Where does it stop? Does every rule need an example? This is an incredibly minor thing and in context I think it's pretty easy to understand. But you can't have examples for every possible rule and in this case the problem is that people will look at the examples and think those examples are the rules. They do include some examples of options in the DMG under success at a cost. Is it useful? Maybe for some people, but they can only provide a few examples.

In any case I agree that they could. I just think people are setting up a strawman assuming that people don't understand basic concepts.

It would be examples... all the way down! ;)
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
I'm writing a PDF for Stormwreck and including setback ideas. Just to see if I can. I wasn't going to, but this discussion got me to

I'm amazed how this board can take one sentence in a reply and turn it into an entire thread!
 

Imaro

Legend
So why does the Basic PDF have examples of possible ability checks, and examples of actions that might fall within the scope of the various skills?
And when 5e was released people complained the 5e examples weren't specific enough (no set DC's) and they were to vague.

This is really starting to feel like a rules vs rulings discussion. Some people want 5e to be more codified and more structured while others enjoy the rulings (including having to make up your own) philosophy that 5e touted from the beginning and aren't keen (and/or don't see the need) for more structure and codification than what exists now.

At some point you can't claim your game is based on rulings instead of rules when you are laying everything out in an exact format
 

Imaro

Legend
I'm writing a PDF for Stormwreck and including setback ideas. Just to see if I can. I wasn't going to, but this discussion got me to

I'm amazed how this board can take one sentence in a reply and turn it into an entire thread!

See now this I think would make sense... examples in the context of actually running an adventure. Generic examples however seem, at least IMO, to hold much less value...
 

Imaro

Legend
I am quite certain that if you were to open up a book that was either an instructional manual or reference manual for any other hobby - much less any other human endeavour - there would be relevant subject matter examples. What's more, I am quite certain that any such manual would be almost-universally reckoned as badly written if it lacked them.

It's not as if other hobbies - or other things you can do as a hobby - are less open-ended than being a DM when it comes to creative expression writ large (even if some might be); nor are they practiced by people who lack the faculties to be DMs.

So suffice to say I find it perplexing that anyone would willfully argue against relevant subject matter examples in the DMG - for instance, subject matter examples on how to adjudicate situations in gameplay - and I don't find the arguments against presented thus far compelling. Such arguments seem to rest on the assumption that "being a DM" is a hobby that is sufficiently distinct from others that the reference manual for DMs somehow ought not to be written and organised in a manner comparable to a reference manual in literally every other hobby or activity that can be done as a hobby in the world.

All that is to say nothing of the fact that the DMG already has, without any apparent widespread controversy:
(a) how-to examples of doing DM stuff (creating a new subrace or race, both of which have fleshed-out examples, and creating a new background, which describes an example background in each step of the suggested process)
(b) example/fixed DCs for several adventuring tasks - foraging, tracking, and social interaction. However niche the first two might be in many games, the last is, strictly speaking, at the heart of what is ostensibly one of the pillars of gameplay!

(I wouldn't be surprised if there is more along this vein, but I don't care to flip through the DMG to find it.)



Now I come to think of it, it's also to say nothing of the fact that the PHB is for the most part written and structured in the way you would expect a reference manual for a hobby to be written and structured. To pick an example at random:

The section on ideals doesn't include any example ideals in and of itself - but that's all right, since every single background in the PHB includes example ideals, and the rule section on ideals refers to those ideals. What's more, that rule section does include examples of/guidance on what to think of to come up with an ideal: "Ideals might answer any of these questions: What are the principles that you will never betray? What would prompt you to make sacrifices? What drives you to act and guides your goals and ambitions? What is the single most important thing you strive for?"

The question is how much value these particular examples (setbacks) would hold for the amount of space they take up. As an extreme counterpart... do we need examples and diagrams of how to roll a die? I don't think we do but for a complete beginner maybe some would argue it's necessary... There's a point where if you are of the recommended age I am going to assume you can grasp certain concepts without examples or in-depth explanation...
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
See now this I think would make sense... examples in the context of actually running an adventure. Generic examples however seem, at least IMO, to hold much less value...
Ya. I'm literally doing it for every check the adventure calls for. This pdf is going to be much longer than I thought, as I keep adding stuff for new DMs.... In addition to maps and a few monsters and a new encounter or three. So much for quick work!

Anyway, I don't think this is rules vs rulings....I think setbacks can be fun, and giving some ideas is helpful. Heck, I might do a whole series on my site on this now. But sure yet.
 

Imaro

Legend
Ya. I'm literally doing it for every check the adventure calls for. This pdf is going to be much longer than I thought, as I keep adding stuff for new DMs.... In addition to maps and a few monsters and a new encounter or three. So much for quick work!

Anyway, I don't think this is rules vs rulings....I think setbacks can be fun, and giving some ideas is helpful. Heck, I might do a whole series on my site on this now. But sure yet.

Well I personally would love to hear from some actual new DM's (having run the game for less than a year) in order to better gauge what they actually had problems understanding or grasping when it comes to D&D...
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
Well I personally would love to hear from some actual new DM's (having run the game for less than a year) in order to better gauge what they actually had problems understanding or grasping when it comes to D&D...
Me too! I sort of asked in a Twitter thread someone else had, but got no replies, alas.
 

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