Regeneration: balance question...

[Veldrane]

Just one thing that happened to me tonight, and made my group (including me) doubt of the Shifter's and Regenerarion balance...

Situation: my character was a Druid 5 / Shifter 4, HP around the 90's, we're playing RttToEE, and we just got in the Inner Temple through the Fire door; I was Wildshaped in Troll form...ok...
...as soon as we got in, we found an Elder Earth Elemental that attacked me and the party's Cleric (the two frontmen); I managed to hold it for two rounds, while the others -the Cleric mentioned above, a Wizard and a Psion- began to retreat while shooting him down with all the magical ammo they could gather. After the second round I was down by 160 subdual damage taken in five attacks, but I bought the casters time (all three) to stay out of his reach (at least he's slow) and they eventually shot him down... ...ok... ...a couple of minutes later (20 rounds) I was up at half HP, the third minute I was fully regenerated, and without a single spell spent to heal me...

...we finished the session a little later, and the same question came to mind to us all: "Isn't the Regeneration ability a bit overpowered, given to a PC?"

I know that it's in the rules to have it, and I know that Ex abilities are the main thing a Shifter get from his Wildshape forms; I know also that this is the point of being a Shifter, and that he gives up casting to get those abilities, but we don't know if being able to substain 160 points of damage from an Elder elemental without possibly die is fair, and the same problem could apply to all monsters that can't do acid or fire damage... ...I can't possibly die with them... ...so we decided to temporary ('till we find a solution, or an answer) erase the Troll from the list of possible WildShapes

On the other hand, I fully realize that Regeneration is one of the abilities the Shifter relies the most upon, and I considered -before this experience- the whole PrC a bit underpowered herself compared to some other PrC, so I (we) don't know if it's ok to erase all the forms that allow Regeneration...

The only solution we could find 'till now is to consider all the damage the regenerating creature takes normal damage instead of subdual, allowing her to regenerate but removing the possibility of a nearly immortal character (obviously a regenerating creature can heal only the damage it suffered while the regeneration was effective, and that would be the difference with Fast Healing)...

Your thoughts about it (sorry for the lenght of the Thread but this question is a tough one)?

Thnx in advance for the feedback...

 

[milo]

I would just use your idea to make it take actual damage instead of subdual damage

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I do not think it is unbalanced at all. You have given up (so far) the ability to cast 4th and 5th level spells in order to be able to wildshape into a troll. Why should you be punished for that choice? Used in a clever manner, you could be the subject of stories told for years to come.

One other thing, why did you wildshape into a troll and enter the fire door?

 

[Crothian]

I agree. Also, troll weakness are well known. Granted, and earth elemental isn't the best challenge for a troll. However, i doubt any intelligent enemy will allow you to fare so easily.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Remember that is it is easily possible to coup de grace a troll that has been taken down by subdual damage. That is an usual "anti troll" tactic in our group. An Earth Elemental might have his problem with that, but imagine some unpleasant humans - tindertwigs, torches, lanterns, all that might do "the job" to kill the poor troll...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Remember that is it is easily possible to coup de grace a troll that has been taken down by subdual damage. That is an usual "anti troll" tactic in our group. An Earth Elemental might have his problem with that, but imagine some unpleasant humans - tindertwigs, torches, lanterns, all that might do "the job" to kill the poor troll...

To coup de grace something, you have to use a weapon that deals it normal damage. As such, only a flaming weapon, or the druid spell Flame Blade are applicable (barring FRCS, which also has acid weapons.) I'm not sure that a torch or lantern can be used in a coup de grace, since neither is actually a weapon in the first place.

Even if it could, there's no way you'll do enough damage with a lantern or torch to force a Massive Damage roll, so you're looking at whittling away at the troll, against its still very-much-active Regeneration. Doable, but it takes a lot of rounds to kill a troll in this fashion. For a party which has downed the troll, this isn't a problem, but for a foe to the party, this is going to be a big obstacle. They aren't going to have the time to stand around dumping Alchemist's Fire on the troll, while its cleric, fighter, and rogue buddies are still engaged in battle. And while the foe is busy with the others, that darned troll is Regenerating...

I agree that the Shifter's ability to take Regenerating forms is powerful. As Veldrane said in his initial post, being basically immortal is a rather significant--and possibly unfair--advantage, and immortality is not, in my opinion, balanced out by the inability to cast 4th and 5th-level spells.

Veldrane has already provided a good working solution, though. Cutting back the Regeneration so that it allows for normal damage, but still repairs it, allows a troll form to still be quite potent, without being nearly invulnerable. Good call, I'd stick with it.

 

[Mahali]

To coup de grace something, you have to use a weapon that deals it normal damage. As such, only a flaming weapon, or the druid spell Flame Blade are applicable (barring FRCS, which also has acid weapons.) I'm not sure that a torch or lantern can be used in a coup de grace, since neither is actually a weapon in the first place.

Even if it could, there's no way you'll do enough damage with a lantern or torch to force a Massive Damage roll, so you're looking at whittling away at the troll, against its still very-much-active Regeneration. Doable, but it takes a lot of rounds to kill a troll in this fashion. For a party which has downed the troll, this isn't a problem, but for a foe to the party, this is going to be a big obstacle. They aren't going to have the time to stand around dumping Alchemist's Fire on the troll, while its cleric, fighter, and rogue buddies are still engaged in battle. And while the foe is busy with the others, that darned troll is Regenerating...

You can pour oil, press a silver coil into an eye, stabb with an icicle, ect.. causing real damage as a CDG to an unconcious regenerating creature.
A CDG doesn't have to deal lots of damage "to force a massive damage roll" it just has to be called a CDG and if you survive the damage you roll a Fort save.

 

[Zerovoid]

I don't think this is game breaking.

The first thing you should do is have your Shifter thank his god that it wasn't a fire elemental.

Regeneration is very powerful, but if you rely on it all the time, sooner or later you will get burned

Intelligent foes can hit you with a torch for a CDG, although with your Troll con, you can probably pass the fort save. Burning oil will do the trick rather nicely though. Enemies won't have time to finish of the PC like this in most fights, but who cares.

The Shifter will still have to stand or fall with his party, because if he's down 160 subdual, that will take about 20 rounds to recover. Plenty of time for enemies to kill the rest of the party if they are able, and then beat down the Shifter. All this really means is that it will be almost unheard of for the Shifter to die in combat if the PC's win the day. Having one character with this ability doesn't bother me much. In fact, it would be an easy way for the DM to salvage a TPK. Just leave the Shifter for dead, and the campaign will continue.

 

[kreynolds]

I hate regeneration. I think all creatures should constantly take 5 points of damage per round that they simply exist.

Oh! Almost forgot. I don't think it's unbalanced either. Well, OK, for the Tarrasque, yeah, it's unbalanced, but the Tarrasque is supposed to be that way.

 

[Crothian]

I hate regeneration. I think all creatures should constantly take 5 points of damage per round that they simply exist.

Oh! Almost forgot. I don't think it's unbalanced either. Well, OK, for the Tarrasque, yeah, it's unbalanced, but the Tarrasque is supposed to be that way.

If the Tarrasque is supposed to be that way, how is it not balanced?