Reincarnate

[Herzog]

I know there have been threads about this before, but since they couldn't provide me with a definitive answer, I'm starting a new thread....

My human Artificer lvl 7 (Eberron Campaign) has just died, and will be reincarnated by our party druid.

Reading up on reincarnate, several questions came up.
I'll start with the one not asked before:

1. What happens to my craft reserve if I loose an artificer level, and later regain it?

Then, the other questions. I'm pretty sure how to handle all the racial bonusses etc, but am still unsure about the monster HD and Level Adjustment some of the creatures in the table get.

If I go in 'bluntly' and apply the rules as I have interpreted them without any regard to balance or logic, I would get the following:

human artificer(7): 21000+ XP (NB: exact XP amount not important)

returned as bugbear(3HD,LA+1) artificer(6)
total ECL: 10.
Needed for next lvl (11): 55000 XP
Needed for this lvl (10): 45000
starting XP: 50000.

This, of course, assumes you get the racial HD. Because adding racial HD will also complicate things (what happens to the skill points and feats you are assumed to get for monster HD?) let's assume you get the LA, but not the HD.

human artificer(7): 21000+ XP (NB: exact XP amount not important)

returned as bugbear(LA+1) artificer(6)
total ECL: 7.
Needed for next lvl (8): 28000 XP
Needed for this lvl (7): 21000
starting XP: 24500.

Now, you might end up with more XP than you had before the reincarnate.

To get to a balanced situation (as in: coming back from the dead is a BAD thing, even if it means you survive) we re-introduce HD, but keep to the fact that you return at a reduced level:

human artificer(7): 21000+ XP (NB: exact XP amount not important)

returned as bugbear(3HD,LA+1) artificer(2)
total ECL: 6.
Needed for next lvl (11): 21000XP
Needed for this lvl (10): 15000
starting XP: 18000.

This would mean losing five artificer levels instead of one. Could be interesting, but I think i'll pass.

Of course, other options have been proposed.
You could require the have the character take monster HD in the upcoming levels, but this only fixes the party balance problem, not the problem for the character.
You could state that the current XP should be calculated using the XP table for the dead character (start at 18000 XP) and determine the XP needed for the next level using the XP table of the reincarnated character (using the first option: 55000 XP) but that would simply mean the character will not level for a very long time, while being more powerfull than the rest of the party up to then.

Now, all this is caused by the fact the spell description is lacking in detailing the effects of reincarnating into a humanoid with racial HD and LA, while having those humanoids on the reincarnation table.

At least in 3.0, the worst that could happen was to roll an animal, and all these conversions where unnecessary because you would retire the character anyway.....

Does anyone have any indication which of these (or possibly another method I haven't thought of) should be used? Preferably based on an obscure rule, errata or FAQ?

I'm well aware (because of the other reincarnation threads) that people have used various methods of dealing with this, but since I'm not the DM, I'd like to have some kind of rule to refer to.

Thanx in advance

 

[Starbuck_II]

Then, the other questions. I'm pretty sure how to handle all the racial bonusses etc, but am still unsure about the monster HD and Level Adjustment some of the creatures in the table get.

Ignore it.

It dfoesn't say
you get LA
(I'm a poet
and didn't even know it)

But seriously, that is my feeling. Now HD are possible according to the description 0of the spell. But not LA.

 

[Jhaelen]

Well, I know there's been other interpretations but I've always ruled that you gain the HD but not the LA. I.e. there's no disadvantages for the character except those related to roleplaying (most people won't react too favourably towards bugbears).

 

[FEADIN]

I think the 1st exemple is correct, you keep the LA and the 3hd, you're a 10 th level character (ECL) and you need 55000 xp to go 11th.
I think that you keep your actual amount of xp; ie = 21000, this will let you wait for a long time before levelling up, the time for the others to go 10th level......
For the skills you take those of a "classic" bugbear in the MM.

 

[Drowbane]

oooh, ouch. That 4 ECL you just ate up is going to ruin you as a caster.

That sucks, I'd beg the DM for a reroll.

 

[Herzog]

Well, I was planning on going into Renegade mastermaker, which would be more melee oriented anyway, so it wouldn't really hurt that much.

the delay in gaining additional levels, however, would be a reason to retire the character.

But then, I haven't rolled yet

Just wanted to get a heads-up before the excrement hits the rotation device....

 

[Jack Simth]

I'm well aware (because of the other reincarnation threads) that people have used various methods of dealing with this, but since I'm not the DM, I'd like to have some kind of rule to refer to.

Hate to disappoint you, but there isn't one. Reincarnate is not a particularly well-written spell - it doesn't specify what happens with Old Age (when is your time up, exactly? What happens with any bonuses/penalties accrued because of age), Per-level limited abilities (like your Craft Reserve... but that's mostly immaterial, as that's a failure in the level loss mechanics not accounting for new material (which is expected!), and the new material not accounting for the existing level loss mechanics (which is what *should* happen)), the LA and Racial Hit Dice you mentioned, and so on.

My advice? Get a Break Enchantment and try again (Break Enchantment can do Instantaneous Transmutation spells of a particular level or lower - and Reincarnate is an instantaneous transmutation. It'll kill you, mind, but theoretically it'll also undo the level loss...).

Edit:
If it hasn't happened yet, though, find a way for the Druid to Maximize it, and convince the DM that Maximizing it lets the Druid control what you come back as.

 

[Drowbane]

My advice? Get a Break Enchantment and try again (Break Enchantment can do Instantaneous Transmutation spells of a particular level or lower - and Reincarnate is an instantaneous transmutation. It'll kill you, mind, but theoretically it'll also undo the level loss...).

dude...

I'm so going to Break Enchantment a reincarnated PC at some point now...

 

[Jack Simth]

dude...

I'm so going to Break Enchantment a reincarnated PC at some point now...

That's not how you do it.

You hit them with something that will make them want a break enchantment, and when they get it, you say "oh, wait..." and act all surprised.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I've had to deal with reincarnate a lot in my game, and most of my players and I have come to the conclusion that we don't enjoy it. (And that's ignoring the correct statement made above that the spell isn't well written.)

I think the idea of allowing the druid to decide the outcome is a good one, though I'd probably require a 4000 gp "power component" rather than the application of Maximize Spell.

Another possibility would be allowing the PC to choose any three (or four, or five, or six) candidate races, and then roll. (Personally, I'd require the original race to be one of the inclusions.)

In any case, reincarnate needs to be re-written. Things the DM (and players, if they have input) should decide include: (1) whether to allow creatures with a LA, (2) whether to allow creatures with racial HD, (3) how to handle LA and racial HD, with regard to level and XP, (4) how physical ability scores are handled, (5) how mental ability scores are handled, and apparently (6) whether break enchantment works to reverse the spell.