Reinventing Roleplaying Games

[Henry]

I have an example of an RPG sub-activity that IMO shows trying to remove all "competitive" aspects is not that productive:

LARPing.

Compare the subset of Live-Action Role-Players (who have been active for at least 15 years now) to the populace who play Tabletop RPG's. LARPers are a VERY small minority compared to RPG'ers as a whole, and BOTH are smaller than GAMERS as a whole. Insistance on non-competition will satisfy a small portion of gamers, but the majority do not game for that reason. They game to tell a story in which they are ULTIMATELY successful. Whether it's the hack & slashers who get upset if they don't beat the "boss fight of the night", or whether it's the deep immersive roleplayers who handle the setbacks along with victory, it's not as fun when here is NO sense of accomplishment.

This not a slam against LARPers; this is a recognition that LARPing appeals to an even smaller populace than Tabletop gaming does. The secret to success of RPG's, to me, is NOT to call it a "hobby" exclusively (which sounds too pretentious for me to use), but to package it as JUST ANOTHER GAME, which DOESN'T take a doctorate to enjoy, that's fun for the whole family, and which is ultimately (like any other game from Golf to Parcheesi) a reason for people to come together and socialize or network.

Hobbyism is not the sole extension of RPG'ing; Hobbyism is a side-effect, like it is with any other means of entertainment. Golfers have hobbyists, American Football (and European) have hobbyists, Stamp collecting has hobbyists; heck, I'm pretty sure that the world of stamp collecting has its own "comic book guys":

"This, sir, is a 1907 Soloman Islands stamp in fine mint condition, previously owned by a collector in Port au Principe. Only a Dullard would not know that information. Good Day."

 

[Zappo]

Odd enough, the only two LARPs I've played were absurdly competitive to the point that I quit almost immediately.

OTOH, I haven't played a single competitive RPG, by design or by accident, since... maybe ten years ago? In all the games I've played, the party is more or less cooperating. After two threads and uncounted posts, I still can't see in real life the problem which MM is denouncing.

 

[barsoomcore]

Of course there's mileage in selling RPGs to story-type people as well as game-type people. We're all just guessing as to how much, though, because it's NEVER BEEN TRIED, and how best it might be done.

Sorry, what? Of course it has. Oh, well, if you assume that A) there's a clear-cut distinction between story-type people and game-type people (proof, anyone?) and B) that the word "game" appeals only to the latter (again, proof), then I guess you could say that any advertisement that includes the word game is a complete disavowal of all story-type people who might otherwise buy the game, sure. You could say that.

That wouldn't make it true.

Hey, here's how a little company called Wizards of the Coast describes Dungeons and Dragons to interested folks:

Dungeons and Dragons is the original tabletop fantasy roleplaying game. Together with your friends, you lead daring heroes through the treacherous dungeons of your imagination. Fabulous treasures and fiendish creatures await you.

So we're suggesting, are we, that substituting the word "game" for some other term would bring in a whole slew of new folks who would otherwise dismiss the entire activity as a mere "game"? Does anyone NOT think this is utter nonsense?

 

[trollwad]

"Doesn't mean they were right. Perceptions have changed over the years. Gary, Dave, and the rest of the crew didn't really understand what they had. It grew out of a game, so it was a game. As I recall, the first time anyone referred to it as roleplaying was around 1975, when a fellow by the name of Glenn Blacow mentioned it in the APA (Amateur Press Association) zine, Alarums and Excursions. A tag which quickly caught on since it described what you did so well.

In the skeptical community what you did is know as an, "appeal to authority." Unfortunately, even authorities can make mistakes."


Damn you are really arrogant (with a really bad sense of history). If you talk to our resident historian (Grodog) that is NOT the impression he will leave. Gygax recently said that it was a game with some similarities to impromptu theater. And as far as the 'appeal to authority' that you denigrate, he is an authority because he created the friggin game and has helped guide it for many years (and is a nice guy to boot).

 

[Allensh]

You may think Alan is grandstanding, and I wouldn't disagree, but these are real questions. Of course there's mileage in selling RPGs to story-type people as well as game-type people. We're all just guessing as to how much, though, because it's NEVER BEEN TRIED, and how best it might be done.

I completely disagree. It has been tried; it's called the Storyteller System and the World of Darkness. This "storytelling" stuff was it's main selling point!

This "hobby vs game" guano is the most pretentious junk I have seen on the net since "Hey netpunks!"...

Allen

 

[evildm]

If you're going to present a problem, present a solution to go along with it, otherwise, you're not actually saying anything.

 

[Remathilis]

without opening any old wounds (and BTW, I DO think the game is a hobby, but its also a game at the same time, the two are NOT mutually exclusive) I'm still annoyed at the signal to noise ratio.

TELL ME WHAT THIS REINVENTION ENTAILS! LET ME IN ON THE REVOLUTION!

1.) What does it entail? Specifically
2.) How do we get started?
3.) What are the benefits? The Reprocutions? How do we minimize the latter?
4.) What is the ultimate goal?
5.) How are we going to get others on the bandwagon.

Answer these (or give us a jumping off point) and we'll go from there.

BTW: No hard feelings.

 

[SSquirrel]

But not all like video games. I like science fiction and fantasy and (some) media, but I can't abide video games. Such a skewed view of the world they give. (Oops, channeling a past life there.)

What? SKewed view of the world? That it's all made of polygons. No clue what you mean with this.

Let's face it, video games do what they do well. Why compete against their strengths? RPGs have things they could do well, if they weren't constrained by our view of how they must be. I say we use our strengths and find an audience that way.

We do. It's called we talk to people and explain it and THAT is our strength...our interaction with others.

Sir, as long as RPGs are seen as those silly little games nerds play in secret locations, of course we're not going to expand the hobby. But if we can get people to see RPGs as this fun activity where you go and have adventures without having to go far away yourself, then the prospects widen greatly.

Haven't you seen ANY of the sales figures involving core rulebook sales and sales from the different companies over the last nearly 4 years? MILLIONS of people bought these books and given the number of steadfast 2E folks I know (really, I swear) I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few of those folk were brand new to teh hobby. Heck my current group met thru meetup.com. 1 is a total gaming newbie, the rest have all gamed to some degree but the 3 of us were teh only ones of the 8 of us to have played 3E before. Teh rest were all jumping into 3.5

Hagen

 

[Maggan]

I second that

And for the record, it's ALREADY called a "hobby".

If somebody asked me, "What hobbies do you have?", RPGs would be included in my answer. It's already a hobby and we all know that. You want to chuck the word "game" because TO YOU it primarily means competition and you want to de-emphasize that aspect of role-playing.

A very good point, an it adresses one of the things that's grating to me about using the word hobby to describe the games I play.

I think it would be easier trying to go for, say, "roleplaying adventures" if one would insist on dropping the "game" part.

Would be confusing for those already into rpgs but maybe would appeal to those who aren't. I'm sure it's been tried though... most things have been tried. For storytelling focused roleplaying games I would not only look to Vampire and Prince Valiant, but also to Hogsheads excellent New Style series (Baron Münchhausen, De Profundis, Puppetland) which were focused on story and which from my limited anecdotal observation mostly appealed to entrenched gamers, most often Game masters.

Cheers!

Maggan

 

[mythusmage]

Another Single Issue Reply

The meme I'm hearing is, game=hobby. Not so, game≠hobby. Each game is part of the hobby, the hobby is made up of many games. Each game can become a hobby, but it is not the hobby.

You can have an D&D® hobby, an All Flesh Must Be Eaten hobby, A Revenge of the Humans hobby. All a part of the roleplaying hobby itself.

Roleplaying hobby is used in place of roleplaying games. Note the plural, "games", not "game".

So those who play a roleplaying game are participating to some degree in the roleplaying hobby.

Any questions?