Reinventing the [Great] Wheel

[GX.Sigma]

One thing to consider is how the various outsiders relate in terms of age to the planes and to mortals (and potentially mortal belief). I'm in favor of creating the planes and then afterwards populating them with creatures that make sense for the plane and for that cosmology's history.

Within the Great Wheel a lot of this is of course some very much after-the-fact rationalization for scattered, create cool stuff as we go, without a unified vision for all that time method of world creation from 1e to 2e to 3e etc. But I think it's important to take into account. If a particular outsider race predates mortals, do they necessarily need to be linked to any particular concept that easily makes sense to mortal conceptions? Or can you be a little more vague about it?

I think the answer implied by the structure of the cosmology is that the inner planes came first (elements), then the ethereal (creation), then the material (existence), then the astral (thought), then the outer planes (belief).

Of course, there's also the idea that the outer planes are self-sustaining (unless you imagine that the powers are holding them together, so they are indirectly sustained by human belief), and the implication that the planes were created (hence the astral plane, which nobody was really meant to see).

Hey, it wouldn't be Planescape if these questions had easy answers.

 

[Orius]

Sure, that's the "We made some stuff up we thought was cool" explanation, but it doesn't quite square with the rest of canon. The high-up fiends have control over fiendish forms -- which is a concept I rather like -- but it begs the question; why choose to be ugly? Maybe they make the weaker fiends ugly because ugly soldiers are scarier, or just because they're cruel to their own kind, but surely the high-up fiends would make themselves beautiful.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps they like to be fearsomely hideous. They take a more fair shape when tempting mortals because they know it works. Or maybe they see the mortal obsession with beauty a thing of foolishness, since it can be so often used for temptation and seduction, yet mortal beauty always decays.

 

[Balesir]

Honestly? Because there's an idea that these are spiritual creatures, and unlike mortal beings, their visage generally matches their true nature. With spiritual entities, what you see is pretty literally what you get.

I think at root it's more fundamental than that. Evolution has led humans to like physical forms that correlate approximately with health and fitness, so we have a deep psychology that identifies 'attractive' as 'good' - which is to say trustworthy, healthy, leader and/or mate material. Note how "healthy" tends to get used for moral as well as physical and mental condition, even as you read that last sentence.

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[81Dagon]

Sure, that's the "We made some stuff up we thought was cool" explanation, but it doesn't quite square with the rest of canon. The high-up fiends have control over fiendish forms -- which is a concept I rather like -- but it begs the question; why choose to be ugly? Maybe they make the weaker fiends ugly because ugly soldiers are scarier, or just because they're cruel to their own kind, but surely the high-up fiends would make themselves beautiful.

At least you have an answer for the LE fiends... "The Boss told me to use this body."
There's always someone better

More seriously, I'm reminded of how Faces of Evil had a lesson for each of the forms the Baatezu had at each level, as well as a piece that Rip wrote on the lessons of each type of Yugoloth on geocities years ago. Maybe there is something of deeper, spiritual value for those fiends that makes the physical ugliness of their forms to mortals worthwhile? I could totally see some form of devil forcing their temptresses and bargainers into repulsive forms to force them to become extremely skilled at bartering, doubled-dealing and seducing. Anyone can talk you into selling your soul if they look like Aphrodite, but it takes real talent to do the same thing if you look like a flying polyp.

I really like the idea of combing metal with Lawful Evil Fiends though. Maybe I'm being a bit of a literal chemist with this, but I have what I think is a great idea in my mind. A low level assassin-devil could its body infused with elemental sodium metal so that the surface was normally tarnished, but it could rub it away as it grabs at you so they can simultaneously burn and melt your face off at the same time. That is a nasty little bugger!

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps they like to be fearsomely hideous. They take a more fair shape when tempting mortals because they know it works. Or maybe they see the mortal obsession with beauty a thing of foolishness, since it can be so often used for temptation and seduction, yet mortal beauty always decays.

I think at root it's more fundamental than that. Evolution has led humans to like physical forms that correlate approximately with health and fitness, so we have a deep psychology that identifies 'attractive' as 'good' - which is to say trustworthy, healthy, leader and/or mate material. Note how "healthy" tends to get used for moral as well as physical and mental condition, even as you read that last sentence.

Maybe lesser fiends are ugly because their betters see fit to make them so, and then each fiend mentally grows over the centuries to see their ugliness as beauty and mortal beauty as disgusting weakness. So 'ugliness' becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy that even greater fiends embrace!