Pathfinder 2E Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank

[Arilyn]

People keep saying that, but it didn’t keep them on top when TSR faltered or at the end of 4e. It is a fact that it takes more than the brand name.

Okay, as long as the company is well run and they don't stray too far from its roots. Companies may falter but D&D bounces back...

 

[Xenonnonex]

As far as how popular it is compared to 5e? Well, in this market no one is going to be able to touch the magic of the brand label and name recognition of D&D.

This seems to discount everything Wizards has done to achieve that recognition and popularity. And instead just attributes that popularity because of brand label and name recognition.

 

[darjr]

Maybe. Remember the 3.5 era when everyone knew the hobby was aging and dying. That juggernaut had bad knees. The current state of affairs is so profoundly different.

 

[Campbell]

People keep saying that, but it didn’t keep them on top when TSR faltered or at the end of 4e. It is a fact that it takes more than the brand name.

I do not think it is the brand name that leads to the relatively untouchable position of modern Dungeons and Dragons. They have made an extremely accessible game that hits all the right Dungeons and Dragons notes. It was mostly to feel like Dungeons and Dragons and be familiar to lapsed fans and children of lapsed fans. Add to that an extremely accessible Organized Play environment and a large amount of sway over game stores do to Magic pretty much running the show at most game stores. Combine all that with young population obsessed with nerd culture and a game that is extremely stream friendly. In the current environment it is almost impossible to meaningfully compete with Dungeons and Dragons. Not really worth trying because of the built in business and nostalgia advantages that Wizards of the Coast has.

I do not mean nostalgia in a negative sense here. Wizards has made some good business decisions that have served to boost the popularity of the game.

 

[Arilyn]

This seems to discount everything Wizards has done to achieve that recognition and popularity. And instead just attributes that popularity because of brand label and name recognition.

Not at all. Game designers work very hard, and it's not an easy job. D&D has huge name brand recognition which can't be discounted. There are awesome games out there toiling I obscurity because of lack of name power.

 

[Xenonnonex]

Not at all. Game designers work very hard, and it's not an easy job. D&D has huge name brand recognition which can't be discounted. There are awesome games out there toiling I obscurity because of lack of name power.

But that is just the thing. The designers at Wizards had to work hard on developing that huge brand recognition. They did not just start out with huge brand recognition. Not even in 5e. And this cannot be discounted.

 

[Campbell]

If you use the optional rules in the 5e DMG you can make D&D5e as brutal and bloody as you want. I know this for a fact as I've done exactly this for my Ravenloft campaign which is coming up to it's 2 year anniversary. Default 5e is heroic fantasy; the rules are in place to make it as gritty and dark as you want.

So, what is the selling point of Pathfinder2e beyond this - bearing in mind that extra crunchy rules and more character customisation over 5e is not a selling plus for me?

I have no meaningful way of knowing what you are looking for, but I can speak to some of the things that are important to me:

• Tighter math
• Better and More Accurate GM Tools including better GM guidance with plentiful examples through the book on how to use the game
• Modular Design (Characters and Systems). The Game Mastery Guide is going to go into depth about how systems are built, how to the hack the game, and provide examples like removing level from proficiency with detailed analysis on how that affects the game.
• Far better support for B/X style dungeon and wilderness exploration
• Spells that are rewritten to emphasize risk and drama
• A more fluid and intuitive action economy
• The monsters are so much more fun. So much! They really did their best to make every monster feel unique and mechanics were built primarily based on the feel of the monster. Like oozes have massive amounts of hit points, but low AC, are immune to critical hits and precision damage. It's like you are slowly swiping away at the slime as it congeals back together.
• The rarity system provides a nice way to communicate what is and is not available for play. Many spells like Teleport, Scry, Detect Alignment, and Mindblank are Uncommon by default meaning to get access to them they must be earned in play or taken only with GM approval.
• Magic items are a lot more fun than in Fifth Edition. This will be especially true when the GMG provides us with artifacts, intelligent items, cursed items, and relics.
• No more bloated hit points on monsters. Generally monsters have similar numbers to PCs of their level.
• No more abstract resources on martial characters. No more daily rages. No more bardic inspiration. No more second wind. No more action surge.
• No Bounded Accuracy. There will be a hack if you want it, but I very much do not want it.

 

[Arilyn]

But that is just the thing. The designers at Wizards had to work hard on developing that huge brand recognition. They did not just start out with huge brand recognition. Not even in 5e. And this cannot be discounted.

D&D is the most well known RPG out there. Of course they started with huge brand name recognition. They still had to work hard at creating an appealing game to the largest amount of people, but having that D&D name is a big leg up. How couldn't it be?

 

[Xenonnonex]

D&D is the most well known RPG out there. Of course they started with huge brand name recognition. They still had to work hard at creating an appealing game to the largest amount of people, but having that D&D name is a big leg up. How couldn't it be?

It is now. Your stance that they started out with that huge brand recognition is completely overselling it and does not factor in the efforts that went into creating it. When 4e was on the wane and Pathfinder was king Pathfinder was more widely known.

In a lot of ways they created the snowball effect of that huge and visible brand recognition through the D&D Next playtest. Which again they did not start out with and had to make efforts to create.

 

[Mistwell]

It's really hard to know exactly how well a game is doing for a company, even with Amazon sales ranks. Paizo sells a lot directly through their store and subscription service, which cuts out the middle man. Paizo has an online store with a lot of other company products for sale, including WOTC. We don't have any idea how much revenue this brings in.

We're comparing numbers against just a couple years ago, and nothing about their subscription or store has meaningfully changed since that time.

It's a different time, and we also don't know if Paizo needs to sell as much PF2 as PF1, during it's peak. Is Paizo happy with current sales, ecstatic, worried, panicking? No way to know.

We're not comparing to their peak, we're comparing to their norm for the later years of PF1. The numbers which, presumably, were sustaining their staff reasonably well. They have not had any mass layoffs since then, so it sure seems like they could use numbers at least as good as PF1 was in it's later years.