Removing homogenity from 4e

Shakespeare quotes notwithstanding, I run into the exact same problem. Actually worse. No longer can I be Lawful - bards have alignment restrictions, I cannot wear heavier armor and still cast spells, I can now CAST spells, and my BAB is taking a decent hit as well.

I can make Suave McFightswell, but, suddenly, I'm restricted in alignment, and I gain a suite of abilities that have nothing to do with either fighting or talking.

Again, isn't this homogeny? Every Suave McFightswell suddenly HAS to cast magic?
 

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So why is it okay to sub "Ranger" for my "Rogue" in 4e... especially since he doesn't get the Rogue's utilities... or backstab... or Paragon Paths, or...well you get the point. But a diplomatic fighter can't be a swashbuckler, bard, or rogue in 3.5?

But, I never, ever said, diplomatic FIGHTER. I said diplomatic guy who fights well. Guy who fights well in 3e=fighter, barbarian, ranger or paladin.

Or, how many supplements did I have to wait for Swashbuckler. Never, ever bought character splats, so I wouldn't know.

You wanted Sneaky Shooty guy. In 4e, that's ranger with the right choices.
 

But, I never, ever said, diplomatic FIGHTER. I said diplomatic guy who fights well. Guy who fights well in 3e=fighter, barbarian, ranger or paladin.
If your definition of "guy who fights well in 3e" is "gets +1 BAB every level without exception," then we simply don't agree on the definition of "guy who fights well."

IMO, an 8th-level fighter (+8 BAB) and a 4th-level fighter / 4th-level rogue (+7 BAB) are both "guys who fight well."

And if a difference of +1 BAB over 8 levels is a deal-breaker for you, then 4E should pose the same dilemma, since making a 4E Suave McFightswell involves giving up at least one feat or making some other suboptimal choice. No (balanced) system is going to let you "have it all."
 

Again, isn't this homogeny?
Yes, it is.
3E could be improved by removing some of the homogeneity.


Of course, the option to make a whole new bard class that does not use magic is built right in to the core of the 3E system. If you make a new whatever class for 4E, all the same "math works" issues remain bolted right on.

I'm entirely happy with the sneaky shooter guys I've seen in 3E. The fact that pure shooter guy is a bit better at shooting than sneaky shooter guy and pure sneaky guy is a bit better than sneaky shooter guy (though I've seen rangers that could sneak as well as any rogue) is a feature, not a bug.
 

If your definition of "guy who fights well in 3e" is "gets +1 BAB every level without exception," then we simply don't agree on the definition of "guy who fights well."

IMO, an 8th-level fighter (+8 BAB) and a 4th-level fighter / 4th-level rogue (+7 BAB) are both "guys who fight well."

And if a difference of +1 BAB over 8 levels is a deal-breaker for you, then 4E should pose the same dilemma, since making a 4E Suave McFightswell involves giving up at least one feat or making some other suboptimal choice. No (balanced) system is going to let you "have it all."
I very much agree.

On top of that, if you are sweating over 1 single BAB over 8 levels, you probably ARE better off playing a tactical mini battle game. There is a gaping chasm between my position of some characters *should* be very weak at some skills, and finding a difference of 1 BAB being even worthy of mention, much less a serious flaw in the system.

Again, I'm not saying it is wrong for you to find that important. If you want a supremely balanced battle game, then certainly it is. And wanting a supremely balance battle game is no less valid than wanting character experience driven game. But lets admit that they are different and accept that.
 

But, I never, ever said, diplomatic FIGHTER. I said diplomatic guy who fights well. Guy who fights well in 3e=fighter, barbarian, ranger or paladin.

Or, how many supplements did I have to wait for Swashbuckler. Never, ever bought character splats, so I wouldn't know.

You wanted Sneaky Shooty guy. In 4e, that's ranger with the right choices.

Well, that's a trick question. If I'm limited to JUST the 3.5 PHB, you've set up an un-winnable fight. There is ONE class that has diplomacy as a class skill and good BAB, and that's paladin (which you poo-poo'd because of the LG holy-warrior element). So no, there is no combination in the core books that meets your EXACT criteria...

Oh course, its PERFECTLY fine for 4e to fail to meet those same types of criteria. "Oh, you want to be a rogue who can use a shortbow? Be a ranger!" ISN'T a good enough answer for me. First off, rangers come with ranger-baggage (class skill nature/dungeoneering, no bluff or thievery as class skills) power-names descriptions/based off natural elements, or "My 'thief' using Dire Wolverine Strike!") Secondly, I may WANT the rogue elements (artful dodger, sneak attack, rogue paragon paths or rogue powers like tumble) but instead of being FORCED to use a hand-crossbow, I want a freaking shortbow. One choice of weapon for 1/2 of my rogue powers (those that can be used at range) forcing me to be a WHOLE DIFFERENT CLASS isn't good game design. IMHO it stinks.

So in the "spirit" of 4e's balancing of game mechanics and "fluff" I give you Suavey Mc Figthtswell, 3.5 core.

Half-elf Paladin, LG

His highest score is in charisma, with strength and con being not far behind.
He's a knight of the realm, loyal to the crown. His job to to ferret out traitors, spies, and evil forces at work.

He's maxed out ranks in Know: Nobility (to know whose supposed to be in court and whose not) sense motive (to determine liars and frauds) and diplomacy (to be suave and cool). His synergies and racial mods give him a +6 to diplomacy over his ranks+cha.

He's so good determining social motives and insidious plots that he can sense evil almost supernaturally.
When he faces a foe of the crown, he is a ruthless and brutal combatant, giving him power to smite those who stand against god and country!
He's abnormally lucky, and his tremendous sense of self-worth gives him ability to withstand attacks on his mind and body.
He also never gives up, granting his body a way to overcome nearly mortal blows (if 4e can use the rationale to heal hp, so can I)
He's hearty as a horse and never suffers from diseases. Good genes, I guess.
Hes brave, fearless even. His presence removes doubt in those who share his worldview.
He's a field-medic, and can treat diseases and heal wounds to allies. He has no formal medical training, just a McGuyver sense of what needs fixing.
He has a loyal mount that always appears when its needed most...
He learned a little spellcasting in the academy, depending on his wisdom or not. (You could ignore this or trade it out for bonus feats, DM willing)
Lastly, his presence is so intimidating that the undead run from the sight of him, if they know whats best for them!

BEHOLD: James Bond: Paladin.

Ain't no worse than calling a ranger a rogue, right?
 
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So, I've been thinking some more about the whole Rogue with short bow thing. And I came up with something I've mentioned before, a Half-Elf Rogue with the Warrior of the Wild feat. I've named him Quinn.

Quinn had Twin Strike as his Dilettante power. Twin Strike works with both the short bow and traditional rogue weapons.

His first level feat is Warrior of the Wild, which gives him hunter's quarry. Now, at first level, he doesn't have proficiency with the short bow. In 4e, that means he doesn't get the short bow proficiency bonus. Which is nothing to sneeze at, but technically, Quinn can still use it. And, with Twin Strike, Quinn gets two chances to to hit. A short bow also has the potential to do more damage than a hand crossbow or a dagger.

The feat also gives him hunter's query, which works well with sneak attack.

His second level feat is Weapon Proficiency: short bow.

His fourth level feat is Novice Power which I used to give Quinn Cut and Run, which is Twin Strike that gives him the ability to shift 3 squares between attacks. This powers usefulness, with our without a short bow, should be fairly obvious.

Over all the I've chosen melee rogue powers and Twin Strike like Ranger powers. I suspect this would continue throughout Quinn's career. This is because Ranger Twin Strike like powers are more versital than the Rogue ranger powers.

My combat strategy is fairly simple: start with the Ranger encounter powers using the short bow, possibly using Cut and Run to move into a flanking position. Then switch to the dagger to get in sneak attack damage.

He's best at thievery and acrobatics, but thanks to Warrior of the Wild, I was able to train him in both Acrobatics and Athletics.

Quinn's the illegitimate child of a married Elf father, and a married Human mother. His step father divorced his mother when he found out she was pregnant. While he spent the first few years of his life on the streets of Blackmoor, he and his mother moved out into the cold country when he was a teenager. There he learned the way of the bow and still prefers it's speed and punch to anything else, even though smaller weapons give him the ability to surgically strike.

He took up adventuring with Jen, Gimble, and Adrian because he didn't have any other skills he could fall back on and depends on his team mates to help him survive out in the wild. He feels bad that he's not as in tune with nature as he thinks he should be, and has taken to worshiping Corellon and asking the Elves patron deity for guidance. One of his first purchases on striking out on his own was Corellon's holy symbol.

I've attached Quinn's character sheet at 4th level.
 

Attachments


Fanboy,

Its not a bad build (to be honest, I think its pretty good) but has a few flaws.

* First Strike is utterly useless unless Quinn can get into Melee. Catching your foes with CA is pointless because a shortbow can't get Sneak Attack.
* Both ranger powers are encounter powers. This means if the fight takes to the air (for example, fighting harpies or gargoyles) the rogue's damage output drops after 2 rounds (1st: TS + HQ, 2nd C&R, 3rd+ BA, BA, BA)
* All those rangers powers still work with a hand-crossbow. And it doesn't cost him a feat (better spent on backstabber or Weapon Expertise) & he can still use Sly Flourish as needed.
* Its a specific racial build: An elven rogue (for example) loses TS as a dilettante (though he gets shortbow prof for free, even if he can't use it with a single power until 4th and C&R). The poor halfling shortbow archer is REALLY boned; he gets neither free power nor free feat. Guess that's why those guys use slings, eh?
(Did I mention eladrin can use LONGSWORDS with rogue powers at the cost of a feat and a SA die?)

Personally, WotC could fix the problem with a single feat:

Sniper Shot
Prerequisite: proficient with shortbows, Sneak attack
Benefit: You can use a shortbow with any ranged rogue power or class ability that normally allows you to use a crossbow. Your sneak attack with such powers is 1d6 less than normal when using a shortbow.

Yet WotC seems fine with not printing said feat. Because rogue = crossbow, like it or not.

Next, how to give fighters something to do when the dragon takes to the sky...
 

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Archer Rogue, level 1
Elf, Rogue|Ranger
Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude
Background: Occupation - Criminal (+2 to Thievery)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 18, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 13.


AC: 16 Fort: 13 Reflex: 15 Will: 13
HP: 26 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +8, Thievery +11, Stealth +9, Perception +10, Bluff +6, Acrobatics +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana -1, Diplomacy +1, Endurance +2, Heal +3, History -1, Insight +3, Intimidate +1, Nature +5, Religion -1, Streetwise +1, Athletics

FEATS
Level 1: Quick Draw

POWERS
Hybrid Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Hybrid Rogue at-will 1: Clever Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Two-Fanged Strike
Hybrid daily 1: Split the Tree

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Leather Armor, Arrows (30), Short sword, Longbow, Dagger (4)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
 

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