D&D 5E Removing INT, replacing it with?

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
So, taken from another thread:

I want to remove intelligence as stat. At my table, low or high INT is generally badly played. I think a mix of class/background/race should allow in-game characters to know a lot already. A inhabitant of a world like Faerun or whatever should be able to know a few common basic things: what it this god symbol? What is this type of common tree? etc

Same with classes: a druid should just know basic stuff about animals, fighters can identify type of enemy troops, rangers should know best about their favored terrain/enemies, spellcasters know about magic, etc.

Same with background. A veteran can identify mercenary companies, a hermit know a terrible secrets etc

Same with race. I personally replace Language proficiency with Culture proficiency: if you know Dwarven, you also know general dwarven history and the etiquette when dealing with them.

So, I remove INT and the skills that comes with it. Characters either know stuff from their class/culture/background or they dont. Here's what I think would be advantages:
  • Hidden or forbidden knowledge should be a reason to adventure, or at least take the Research downtime activity.
  • Language proficiency becomes a big boon, especially exotic ones.
  • Features like Slayer's Eye, Know your enemy etc are more interesting to use in play.
  • Favored Enemies and Terrains allow a ranger to be THE guy you go to when you want to know about undeads, dragons or that mysterious forest over there, etc
  • Remove the unfortunate ''play 8 int as a complete moron'' type of character.
  • Tools become more important: know more ''I scribe this scroll or brew this potion with Arcana or Religion''. You craft them using the appropriate tools. Want to identify an item? Use the appropriate tool's! Or cast Identify!

In exchange, I'd make an Awareness/Acumen stat to:
  • Put Perception, Insight, Investigation, Survival there. Leaving WIS
  • Put Initiative there, thus lowering the all-importance of DEX.

So, other neutral effects would be:
  • Wizard are moved to WIS caster (as are the other INT casters).
  • Wisdom now encompasses calm thinking and reflection as well as willpower (partially shared with Charisma).
  • INT saves, which are rare, becomes either Awareness saves or charisma or wisdom.
  • Want to play a smart-a**? Gather the most language/tools proficiencies and gather lore IN-GAME!

So, how does it look?
 

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ART!

Legend
This mostly works for me. I'd be tempted to replace INT with more skills, but of course skills are linked to ability scores, so...

Thing is, you could do this with most of - if not all - abilities.
 
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Laurefindel

Legend
So, how does it look?
Pretty good. I did something very similar when for a d20-inspired system* I never end-up using. It worked well in the little playtest I did.

*T'was a wannabe simplified 3e D&D circa 2008-2009, after being dissatisfied with 4th ed. 5e came to be pretty similar in the end, and better in some ways. Gosh, I wish I came up with advantage/disadvantage...
 




You have a whole different take on how to use Int and other ability stats than I do. Plus your whole 'either you do or you don't' take on things pretty much negates the needs for stats and skill bonuses at all. At that point, you're using a whole different system. Maybe you would enjoy a pure narrative system better?
 



Believe it or not, back in like 1st Ed, your class allowed you to just "know stuff". There were so skills. The Wizard obviously knows magical lore stuff. The Ranger or Druid obviously know about plants and animals. The Thief obviously knows the value of gems and how to use rope.

And if it was something that might require a roll you just rolled against the stat. "While the Wiz does know this is ancient elven, roll under your INT of 18 to see if he knows the secret!"

Anywho, removing a stat is not a good idea IMO. People dont RP a high/low WIS or high/low CHA either. That's what the DM and rolling the dice is for. After some RP: "With your high charisma roll you convince the King to give more reward."
 

Making Artificers Wisdom/Willpower/Awareness based feels off as well. I'm not sure where else to put them (or whether to add a new way to set save DC's)
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Anywho, removing a stat is not a good idea IMO. People dont RP a high/low WIS or high/low CHA either. That's what the DM and rolling the dice is for. After some RP: "With your high charisma roll you convince the King to give more reward."

For CHR, I can see it working as something like a mundane form of presence in VtM though, so it isn't anything most people would be able to RP well, or how they RP it won't necessarily come through and help. You the player roaring at the DM because your Leonin is roaring at the guard doesn't seem like a thing that would help. You the player coming up with a really brilliant idea or bit of knowledge that your character if in a story wouldn't know or think of, and having your character act on it would, right?
 
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vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
You have a whole different take on how to use Int and other ability stats than I do. Plus your whole 'either you do or you don't' take on things pretty much negates the needs for stats and skill bonuses at all. At that point, you're using a whole different system. Maybe you would enjoy a pure narrative system better?
Well, I disagree. You cant say: my character is athletic, so I I can handle all obstacles. Or my character is a dwarf, so I can take more hits, and that's that.

But a dwarf cleric with the soldier background should be able to know stuff about common pantheons, how divine magic works in his day to day life, how clerics are perceived in this world, the ways of the dwarves and the general functioning of a war camp, no?

Now, if said dwarf would like to know that this mystic symbol of the wall is. The DM could ask for a Int (religion or arcana) roll, sure. But I think it would be more interesting to say: ''nothing from you past education allows you to remember anything about such symbol''. So the player has to find a way discover the hidden truth about the symbol, making research or finding an NPC with such knowledge or whatever.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Making Artificers Wisdom/Willpower/Awareness based feels off as well. I'm not sure where else to put them (or whether to add a new way to set save DC's)

I've been mulling it over, and for a while I had Psyche, Awareness, Will, and Charisma, where Psyche was the ability to master complicated and esoteric formula and patterns. So not useful in day to day intelligence things, but exactly wizards memorizing spells. But then that felt really, really narrow and I have no idea what a negative modifier would mean.

So now I'm toying around with some "not abilities but things to spend character creation points on", like that psyche (wizards), and divine connection (clerics), and natural attunement (druids), and spirit sense (shamans), or the like.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Believe it or not, back in like 1st Ed, your class allowed you to just "know stuff". There were so skills. The Wizard obviously knows magical lore stuff. The Ranger or Druid obviously know about plants and animals. The Thief obviously knows the value of gems and how to use rope.

And if it was something that might require a roll you just rolled against the stat. "While the Wiz does know this is ancient elven, roll under your INT of 18 to see if he knows the secret!"

Anywho, removing a stat is not a good idea IMO. People dont RP a high/low WIS or high/low CHA either. That's what the DM and rolling the dice is for. After some RP: "With your high charisma roll you convince the King to give more reward."

Yeah, mental stats are a little more hard to roleplay for some players.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
huh...no?

Awareness covers: perception (wis), insight (wis), survival (wis), investigation (int) and Initiative (dex).

Wis still has: animal handling, medecine, spellcasting for Wizard, Druid, Ranger, Cleric and many of the most nasty Saves.
I do like the idea but I suppose I’m wondering why animal handling and medicine arent part of Awareness/Acumin too.
Medicine is lore/survival really whereas animal handling goes into to the whole insight and empathy side of things. I suppose separating them maintains the 6 attributes but it seems to diminish Wis and only keep it as the the psyche-spellcasting stat.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Making Artificers Wisdom/Willpower/Awareness based feels off as well. I'm not sure where else to put them (or whether to add a new way to set save DC's)
In Shadow of the Demon Lord, spellcasters have a special stat called: Magic.

This could be one way of doing things: is you gain the Spellcasting Trait or Pact Magic, roll a new score that determines your spell attack bonus and DC.
 

Horwath

Hero
rename it cunning.
It is used for all current int, wis and cha skills.

remove charisma and wisdom

add willpower. it's for all current int, wis and cha saves.
it is for all spell attacks and DCs.
and for powers of auras, like paladin.
 

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