D&D 5E Removing INT, replacing it with?

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
I do like the idea but I suppose I’m wondering why animal handling and medicine arent part of Awareness/Acumin too.
Medicine is lore/survival really whereas animal handling goes into to the whole insight and empathy side of things. I suppose separating them maintains the 6 attributes but it seems to diminish Wis and only keep it as the the psyche-spellcasting stat.
I could see putting Animal Handling (formerly know as Animal Empathy) in CHA, as it was in 3.5 and Fantasy AGE (for those who know the game).

Medicine I could either see them as either a Acumen skill, or maybe a Dex skill, depending whether you see it as more of the knowledge of medecine or the act patching someone up with deft hands.
 

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DeviousQuail

Adventurer
To keep the changes minimal I would rename Intelligence to Knowledge and Wisdom to Awareness. Knowledge gets arcana, history, medicine, investigation, nature, and religion. Awareness gets perception, insight, survival, and animal handling.

A character's intelligence, wisdom, decision making, and whatnot are tied to their roleplay and ideals/bonds/flaws instead of a number on the sheet. Knowledge also gets a slight boost by tying into more skills than any other attribute.
 


Well, I disagree. You cant say: my character is athletic, so I I can handle all obstacles. Or my character is a dwarf, so I can take more hits, and that's that.

But a dwarf cleric with the soldier background should be able to know stuff about common pantheons, how divine magic works in his day to day life, how clerics are perceived in this world, the ways of the dwarves and the general functioning of a war camp, no?

Now, if said dwarf would like to know that this mystic symbol of the wall is. The DM could ask for a Int (religion or arcana) roll, sure. But I think it would be more interesting to say: ''nothing from you past education allows you to remember anything about such symbol''. So the player has to find a way discover the hidden truth about the symbol, making research or finding an NPC with such knowledge or whatever.
In this follow-up post of yours, it's like you are backtracking (which is ok, and part of my point). You do know you said this in the OP?
Characters either know stuff from their class/culture/background or they dont.
I get some of where you are going and such, but I think getting rid of Int or renaming it isn't a solution for the problems.

IMO, players shouldn't be trying to roleplay their mental stats, just like they don't roleplay their physical stats. (Does the high Str girl lift the game table over their head? Or the high dex guy do standing back flips between die rolls?) Now, that doesn't mean they don't roleplay their character's stats. Such as the high strength character tries to grapple and throw an opponent, or the high dex character does try to run along a parapet. Or the high Int sage spends time researching something in a library. Or the high Wis naturalist tries to work out why their is a new/sudden surge of wild wolves attacking the farm animals. Or the low Int tank just goes and picks a door in a room to open without checking for traps, etc.

Just like trying to roleplay a high Int character is hard to do well, so is roleplaying a low Int character.

I really think I'm rambling here and not making my point well at all Hopefully some of this makes sense though so I will post it and not just dump it.
 


DND_Reborn

Legend
Believe it or not, back in like 1st Ed, your class allowed you to just "know stuff". There were so skills. The Wizard obviously knows magical lore stuff. The Ranger or Druid obviously know about plants and animals. The Thief obviously knows the value of gems and how to use rope.
Just to be clear 1E did have skills, the nonweapon proficiencies started in WSG and DSG (including rope use), and the system was revamped for 2E.

But I do understand and agree with your point about knowledge, which is different from skills, and by and large most of the skills in those books were not knowledge-based (a few were, such as Animal Lore and Plant Lore).

Anyway, back to the thread!
 

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
I could see this working, or at least worth trying. I'd add a few more tweaks, though:

1. Add the AC bonus to Acumen (and also saves such as Evasion) -- this does break Dexterity into fine motor control/combat and awareness/defense, which I see as a plus
2. Make somebody an Acumen caster (either Sorcerer or Wizard).
 
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MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
I was skeptical, but after reading the OP a second time, I think it is a good approach. I would not do it in the D&D game I run, but I'm also stuck on alignment as a thing. So, really, there's no hope for me. But I would happily be a player in a game that ran like that.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
In exchange, I'd make an Awareness/Acumen stat to:
  • Put Perception, Insight, Investigation, Survival there. Leaving WIS
  • Put Initiative there, thus lowering the all-importance of DEX.
I would just keep it INT and retool it to be the things you bulleted above.

After all, many of the things you discuss, such as who would know what based on race / background / class is really knowledge. INT is not knowledge in 5E.

You can certainly remove the INT-based skills, which are knowledge focused, and apply them elsewhere, but otherwise it feels like you are doing more work than you need to unless I am just completely missing your point??

I mean, I like the idea of retooling INT and the skills so you would have something like this:

Strength - Athletics (I would probably break this down myself)
Dexterity - Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
Intelligence - Insight, Investigation, Perception
Wisdom - Animal Handling, Medicine, Survival (I'd keep this here, personally)
Charisma - Influence (combining Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion), Performance

Now you have just 12 skills instead of 18, or you can add more if you wanted.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
I don't want to remove Intelligence, I want it to be more useful. But that's not what this thread is about.

If I did want to remove Intelligence, I would probably remove all of the ability scores, and rework them into six new stats.

Physical: a combination of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.
Mental: a combination of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
Magical: a measure of one's affinity to magic, the supernatural, and the paranormal
Power: a measure of your character's ability to affect others in some way
Defense: a measure of your character's ability to resist others in some way
Luck: a measure of your character's good fortune.

Each stat is a number between 1 and 6. You "build" your character by distributing 21 points among those six stats however you like. A stereotypical "warrior" character would have 6 for Power and Physical, and 1s for Mental and Magical, for example.

All rolls and checks in the game would be made from a combination of 1d20 and two of these modifiers, and use opposed rolls (or a fixed DC, if there is no opponent around to make the check against). The highest result wins, ties are rerolled.
  • To make a weapon attack, you would roll (1d20 + Physical + Power) and your target would roll (1d20 + Physical + Defense.)
  • To make a spell attack, you would roll (1d20 + Magical + Power) and your target(s) would roll (1d20 + Magical + Defense).
  • To convince a merchant to give you a bargain, you would roll (1d20 + Mental + Power), and the merchant would roll (1d20 + Mental + Defense.)
  • To find a hidden switch in a bookshelf: roll 1d20 + Mental + Luck vs. DC X
  • To avoid a fireball trap: roll 1d20 + Magic + Luck vs. DC X
I realize that by this point, we are no longer playing Dungeons & Dragons...we are playing a completely different RPG with vastly different dice mechanics. But that's what I think it would take to remove Intelligence (or any other ability score) from the game.
 
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DND_Reborn

Legend
Physical: a combination of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.
Mental: a combination of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
Magical: a measure of one's affinity to magic, the supernatural, and the paranormal
Power: a measure of your character's ability to affect others in some way
Defense: a measure of your character's ability to resist others in some way
Luck: a measure of your character's good fortune.
This reminds me of an idea from d20 SW and combining it with a system I was designing where there were three abilities and three saves.

But then you run into this...
we are playing a completely different RPG with vastly different dice mechanics. But that's what I think it would take to remove Intelligence (or any other ability score) from the game.
 


Well, you've put a good bit of though into it, and the consequences of it. It sounds reasonable at first blush.

Of all the mental stats I would remove or condense Intelligence would be the last. I would sooner merge Wisdom and Charisma into Willpower and leave attractiveness, intimidation, seduction and the like to RP, skills, and feats. So this seems like an odd choice to make. But, let us know how it works.
 



vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
The simplest thing to replace Int with it Education, it's 90% there already.
Yeah, I can see it being only knowledge and leaving logic, reasoning and all that to RP. If a player want to play an idiot who knows lots of trivia, it would be possible.

They'd be playing as me in a fantasy setting, though.
 


Winterthorn

Monster Manager
I have often thought to replace Intelligence with Memory. Alternatively one could use Learning or Education. Education sounds a little too modern though (btw Traveller, almost as old as D&D, has 6 stats of which Education was used to good effect in that system), so I would go with the more antiquainted term Learning. (IIRC GURPS used IQ, but that had similar problems to play effectively like INT.) With Learning it is I think conceptually easier to play a poorly/highly educated character than an idiot/genius - and it I think it would be easier for the DM to adjudicate situations. YMMV
 
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Stealing liberally from other games, I would reduce the classic six down to three: Fortitude (Str and Con), Agility (Dex) and Presence (int, wis, cha). Beyond that, anything your character should know based on their background, they do. If something is uncertain you could roll Presence, or roll 2d6 as a dm and figure out the result.

So yes this means that the character will be about as clever and persuasive as we are as players. But that's fun for me, rather than just rolling to succeed all the time.
 

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
Being intelligent doesn't make you knowledgeable. It just means you have the capacity for comprehension, the mental dexterity to work out problems quickly, and to make logical deductions on your own.

The problem is the system itself. We have a tendency to rely on codified representations of everything in the game as if it had real-life equivalencies. But that is the nature of the game. Just remember you don't need to roll dice for everything.

You can start by breaking your players out of the habit of asking for rolls all the time. Does the ranger really need a roll to see if he can identify a plant? Unless it has a significant game reward, just say yes. It's not unreasonable.

Likewise, your character with a soldier background probably knows a few things about forced marches, basic patrol strategies, and local rank insignias. Just talk to your players, have a discussion, figure out what makes sense. It's a lot more fun to share your world rather than hiding it from behind pointess skill checks.
 
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