Removing the Bonus Action from Two-Weapon Fighting

[Lord Twig]

I have been thinking of doing this for a while and wanted to get some feedback on if it would break anything.

Essentially the rule would be this:

Two-Weapon Fighting

When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can attack once with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.

If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.

This would allow a second attack with the off-hand weapon if a Fighter used Action Surge, but I think that is a good thing. It wouldn't interfere with other bonus actions or spells like Hunter's Mark, but again, that would be working as intended.

The only real concern I have is a Monk using two shortswords and Martial Arts, but even then I might allow it. Or I can make an exception so that they don't stack.

So what do you all think? Good? Bad? Indifferent?

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I think it is important to consider why you are making this change.

If you feel that fighting with two weapons isn't offensively powerful enough, despite the added versatility of being able to use two different weapons and make melee or ranged attacks in the same round, as well as getting two opportunities to hit and apply special effects like sneak attack, and getting two chances to score a critical hit - then this rule change might be suitable as it makes fighting with two weapons more powerful.

If you are thinking of a different reason for the change, then my thoughts depend upon that reason.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

With the generally low AC scores adding attacks can really change how combats unfold, and how much of a challagne some monsters are.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I would allow that as a perk of the two-weapon fighting style, but I wouldn't make it part of the basic rules for a simple reason: fighting with two weapons is hard. It should take some training to coordinate two weapons well. Making it cost a bonus action, and do less damage, is a reasonable way of modeling that.

Give a normal peasant two shortswords and you'll probably find that he's not feinting high with one while he attacks in the low line with the other--he's basically just holding one while he attacks with the other.

 

[Lord Twig]

I like the idea of adding it to the fighting style. I might do that instead of making it a general rule.

The problem I have with two-weapon fighting is that it is arbitrarily limited by other actions that also use a bonus action. If a Ranger takes two-weapon fighting he has to lose the bonus when he casts a bonus action spell. Meanwhile an archer Ranger (already considered more powerful) doesn't lose anything when they, for example, cast Hunter's Mark.

The same problem with the Fighter. A great weapon fighter can use his Second Wind and still fight at full capacity, but the two weapon Fighter loses half his damage. Likewise when a GW Fighter uses Action Surge he doubles his attacks, but the TW Fighter sill gets his off-hand attack only once.

For the Rogue, sure he has two chances to Sneak Attack, but he has that anyway. He can already move and get two attacks. This would just allow him to also Dash or Disengage or whatever as a bonus action and still get the extra attack.

And you do get an extra chance to crit with the off-hand weapon, but it only doubles the damage for the 1d6 that the weapon does (or 1d8 with the feat). A great sword that crits doubles the 2d6 that it does, so it balances out.

And it just gets worse as you increase your number of attacks. An 11th level GW Fighter will do 2d6+Str x3. An 11th level TW Fighter will do 1d6+Str x4. So say 6d6+15 vs. 4d6+20. That's... actually kinda balanced, with a slight lead to the GW Fighter. But again, the TW Fighter loses some damage when he uses a bonus action for anything else (like the aforementioned Second Wind) while the GW Fighter doesn't.

Oh also Action Surge. That makes it 12d6+30 vs. 7d6+35. Big difference there.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yup. Good analysis. That is indeed the single biggest problem with TWF by RAW: bonus action conflicts.

I'm 100% fine with the fact that a Rogue would get to Dash/Disengage/whatnot. Melee rogues need all the incentives they can get; and it also prevents Greenflame Blade from being the prohibitive favorite in melee compared to TWF. Removing the bonus action cost to TWF if they've paid for it by acquiring the fighting style mirrors the way Arcane Tricksters or multiclass Rogues can acquire Greenflame Blade for no extra bonus action cost. Seems fine to me.

At high levels, TWF fighters (under this variant) will be slightly better than GWM fighters against high-AC targets, and worse against low-AC targets. Against targets that are dangerous enough to grapple/prone first, they will be equally good since they'll both be fighting with one hand (the other maintains the grapple).

 

[Krachek]

Two weapon fighter (dex) can switch to ranged weapon.
Great weapon usually can't. Should we start a thread to make use of str in ranged attack!

 

[Corwin]

Minor quibble: Actions Surge does not take a bonus action. Its free.

 

[Dausuul]

Minor quibble: Actions Surge does not take a bonus action. Its free.

But two-weapon fighting does take a bonus action. So if you Action Surge, you can attack twice with your main weapon but only once with the off-hand; unlike single-weapon fighters, you don't get two full sets of attacks out of it.

 

[Lord Twig]

I also forgot to include Great Weapon Fighting advantage of re-rolling 1s and 2s. I already added the bonus stat damage from Two-Weapon Fighting style. So another boost for the greatsword fighter.

Two weapon fighter (dex) can switch to ranged weapon.
Great weapon usually can't. Should we start a thread to make use of str in ranged attack!

That's if they use Dex, which is valid. If they take the Dual Wielder feat they can use two longswords for a minor damage boost (d8s instead of d6s) and a +1 to AC.

Of course then the GW Fighter can take Great Weapon Master and occasionally get an extra attack with cleave and the option for -5 to hit/+10 to damage. And they can throw Javelins or whatever for a ranged attack with Str if they want.