Removing yourself from a gaming group

[shilsen]

My group 'lobs suggestions' to each other all the time, including making ruthless suggestions for what my NPC's can do to them (thanks, shilsen!), and it doesn't detract from anyone's enjoyment. Do you think it makes the game too easy if the players share metagame information? Because they are a lot of ways to challenge PC's, even if they act in concert.

You beat me to it. The way I see it, the player and the PC are not the same. Considering that any PC is going to know his abilities and what he can do in the game world substantially better than his player will (since the player doesn't actually live and function in the game world 24/7), I tend to treat suggestions from the other players as things the PC might think of doing even though the player originally didn't. It's usually pretty easy for me to see when someone suggests something using information completely unavailable to the PC, and my players are good enough to often ignore more optimal advice because (a) the character wouldn't do it, (b) they really don't think the character would think of it, or the ever-popular (c) stubbornness about what they want to do.

So, in short, I tend to allow suggestions and avoid the use of metagame info, and I trust my players and they trust me, so things work perfectly fine for us. Heck, I've had players turn to me and say, "My PC's got a 25 Int and I don't. Any suggestions for what he might think of?" That might bother some people, but it's fine for me.

 

[William drake]

AHAHAHAHAH.

You should have gone back and kicked their ass again.

Losers.

 

[William drake]

Ok, when you start off with "the signs where there" then its your own fault.

Sorry, but we all know the types of people we should, and shouldn't play with.


Now, to another matter.

NOTES and why they are bad.

I hope everyone is an adult (or adult-like) in their gameplay to know what can and can't be used in game based on ingame and outofgame knowledge. If not, then the other players and the DM should step in. In fact, I DO, as others have said that players didn't, take joy in hearing what is going on with the other players. Whether it has something to do with me or not. And, if Mr. Loser wants to kill me, or attack me, I'm a big boy...I can hear it and understand that I'm alseep. I also, since I'm paying attention to the outofgameinfo, get to ask all the fun questions like "do I hear him?" or "when he draws his sword, does it make a sound and if so, do I hear that?" or "since he opened my door, did my nice big wolf hound wake up." And, if it gets to the point that I can't do anything but get gutted in my sleep by some player who thinks its fun, then I'd just leave. And no, I wouldn't talk it out or make up a reason...I'd just go as well as anyone who has a brain.

And, I've never had to use Notes to one or another players to hike the interest in the game. It's not been extra exciting, or something that make the players go "ewww, what's going to happen next." Now, if ever I would pass a note to a player it might be something like these following things:

"Hey, shut the hell up."
"Dude, can you get me a slice of pizza?"
"Hey, if you throw one more dice I'm going to kill your character, then kick the crap out of you..."

No, really, I've never had players like that...but if I did, those would be some of he notes I would write.

In short, everyone is there to have fun, and yes, fights might break out, or for one reason or another, as some times the plots move, the Players might be against each other. Now, if everyone is a Big Boy or Big Girl, then we can all have fun tricking and playing games against each other, and when the dust has settled and the blood is cleaned from our swords, we can all sit back and go. "wow, that hurt..but I got you with that fireball...didn't see that one did you?" And if not....don't play with them


NOTES ARE LAME.
thank you.

Game On

 

[buzz]

Because what the character shouldn't know the player shouldn't know either.

Only, possibly, if your goal is hard-core immersion. In general, the fact is that we are human beings sitting around a table playing a game. The "meta" is the reality.

Saves all that messy business of worrying about players using knowledge their charactersd wouldn't or shouldn't have... If I'm not what you think I am (e.g. you think I'm a rogue but I'm in fact an assassin) and-or I'm hatching plots against things your paladin holds dear (e.g. I'm planning a heist on your deity's temple) then damn right I'm passing notes! Either that, or I'm getting together with the DM out-of-session to do this but not all DM's are cool with that, or have time.

I've played plenty of PvP, blood-opera style games where there was absolutely no secrecy, and it worked great. Heck, games like Burning Wheel and The Mountain Witch rely on there being no secrecy... and everyone still ends up killing each other in thoroughly enjoyable ways.

It's about trust. If you can't trust other players to play the game, I would seriously question why you're gaming with them at all.

DM always keeps character sheets...it just makes sense that way.

Um... why? What authority does some player (as that's what a DM is, a player at the table) have to keep a piece of paper I probably paid for with some stats for an imaginary character on it, much less have authority over my use of the concept of the character.

No offense, Lanefan, but from my perspective, that is really, really messed up.

You're assuming the departure is acrimonious.

True, but that's been the tenor of the thread so far. I didn't notice that you'd specified you were talking only about friendly departures.

I'm not. If I'm unable to stay in the game due to outside conflicts e.g. work schedule, then I'm out. But isn't it only sheer courtesy to try and arrange things in-game as best as possible to reflect this?

If your departure is amicable, certainly. That said, my departure from the group I mentioned above was amicable, but I also wasn't going to worry about staying on for multiple sessions just so the in-game fiction made perfect sense. I'd already spent at least a year being generally unhappy with their style of play. The GM came up with a plot device to explain my PC's absence in my final session, and we were good.

And if the departure *is* acrimonious, so much the better. Role-play your way out, then just decline to bring in another character if offered the chance.

Again, I think it is ludicrous to solve an out-of-game problem with in-game behavior. If I'm not having fun, or there's abusive/offensive behavior going on in the group, I am not going to waste my precious free time catering to their needs for a tidy in-game explanation as to why I won't be playing my PC with them anymore. I am going to pick up my stuff and leave, as should any reasonable human being.

 

[buzz]

and badly-spelledPerhaps, but I've seen *far* too many instances of players abusing information their characters don't have.

Then you need to a) find some better players, or, if that's not possible, b) just be firmer as a DM in reining in the abuse. If your players have a problem with b, then see: a.

Or worse, when someone goes off alone to scout and it's not done by note, other players lobbing in suggestions as to what the scout shoudl do next...it got to the point where I had to rule that any action suggested by a non-involved player immediately became a banned action...sigh.

I don't see any problem with players helping each other out. Given the complexity of D&D, the varying degrees to which people are willing to master it, and the vagaries of whether we're playing after a long day of work, taking care of kids, or just plain not good at certain aspects of gaming, banning people from kibitzing just doesn't result in fun, IME.

Lanefan, out of curiosity, what's the average age of your group(s)?

 

[rgard]

INEXCUSABLY Bad Form to invite someone to a game and then play "Gank the New Guy!" as a welcome-to-the-club gesture.

I like to think I might have gone back to give them a polite discourse on gaming ettiquette, but since I'm such an easygoing and tolerant sort, ANY situation where I've been asked to leave would be so... baffling is a good word... that I'd be too stunned.

It's still baffling to this day for me. I don't have any idea what they planned beyond the first attack. I do know the party's cleric was casting a higher level spell (7+ segments to cast) when my MU went ethereal (1ed. Etherealness - major psionic science) and the paladin (yeah, a LG paladin was part of this) was running towards my MU with his sword drawn. Who knows, the cleric may have even been casting a Heal spell? So I don't know if they fully intended to drop the MU for good or if it was some type of 'let's establish who is the boss in this party' thing. It was somewhat naive/stupid of them to think they had any chance beyond the first round if they didn't kill the MU. I was playing the only MU in the party. In the second round my MU dropped out of the ethereal plane laid a quick hurting on the fighter (MM with no dice cap) then went ethereal again.

They tried locating my MU with divinations (commune spell among others), but I had a mind blank up, non-detection amulet and mind bar (psionic) for good measure.

My MU finished the 3 of them (cleric, fighter & paladin) when they made camp. The druid was on watch with some treant guards assisting. My MU took a gamble, cast message and told the druid "the area of effect for a meteor swarm is quite large". The DM passed the druid player a note and the druid said he heard something outside the camp perimeter and was going to investigate...I knew then that I had read the druid player's body language well from when I arrived to play through the first attack...he wasn't into whatever they wanted to do. The other players metagamed and asked him to wake their characters up. The DM said no as the druid didn't say he would wake them up, saying the druid can wake their characters up when he returns. My MU then cast a limited wish or wish I forget which, wishing that the party's equipment would be immune to magical fire for one round beginning the next time magical fire effected the items. My MU cast 4 delayed blast fireballs and a meteor swarm...all going off in round 5. No dice caps on the delayed blast fireballs...I miss that from 1ed! Even with rings of fire resistance and similar the minimum damage was outrageous. It was funny when the DM told the druid player that he saw a huge explosion back at the camp and when the druid returned, the 3 pcs looked like some original series Star Trek special effect...you see flattened clothing (just about everything they wore was magical) with ash leaking out where there should be limbs and heads.

After alot of shouting at the DM, that's when I was told to leave.

I personally would never do what they did to a new guy in a gaming session; it's bad form. In any case, my MU did survive, got some cool magic items and the XPs for whacking them.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Because what the character shouldn't know the player shouldn't know either.

I never saw problems with that, except with very childish and/or hostile players. For me, it always seemed the better way to thow idiots out of the group.

Besides, how can you play like that? You can't help but to learn things. For example, I know that red dragons are vulnerable to cold damage. So now I can only play characters that know about that?

 

[Keeper of Secrets]

It would be awesome if some of the gamers where had been walked out on - especially the wacky ones - were, in fact, now reading this thread!

 

[rgard]

It would be awesome if some of the gamers where had been walked out on - especially the wacky ones - were, in fact, now reading this thread!

I will sometimes wonder when seeing an EN Worlder posting from a Virginia, Maryland or DC location, whether one of them was at the session.

Who knows?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

It would be awesome if some of the gamers where had been walked out on - especially the wacky ones - were, in fact, now reading this thread!

About five years ago a friend of mine brought a friend of his to our gaming group. When this guy didn't get the kind of treasure he wanted, he proceeded to sleep on my couch for the rest of the session.

Later, he posted about what an awful DM I was on the WotC message board.

D&D (3.5) gamers pretty much haunt all the same locations online.