Replacing dead party members

[PHGraves]

My players started with the following group (1st level):

Human Fighter (Two-Handed)
Dragonborn Paladin
Warforged Paladin
Tiefling Warlock (Infernal)
Human Wizard (Staff)

While there were some issues (Paladins had a combined WIS mod of +1, Warlock has 14 CON and 18 CHA), all of the characters were 'concept' characters based more on fluff than rules.

After a few sessions, the Dragonborn Paladin and Tiefling Warlock are both dead while the survivors are now 2nd level.

Being that this is the first 4E game I am running that deals with player death, I have a few questions:

In previous versions of the game, I allowed replacement characters to come in at (average party level)-1. Will this be a problem in 4E?

The surviving party members want to dictate the roles of the new characters (one Leader, one Striker). Should I allow this, or force them to accept the characters made by the players?

The player of the Warlock wants to play an identical character (did I mention he is 14 CON, 18 CHA, Infernal Pact, and has no Infernal powers except Hellish Rebuke?). Which hard alcohol should I use to deaden the pain I feel inside each time I read his character sheet?

 

[burntgerbil]

First, I would talk to all of your players - especially the warlock - to find out what it is they want from their characters. Why did he take the infernal route ? Maybe it it was flavor only, that is something you can partially flavor as a DM. There's nothing saying that a fey warlock can't be more diabolical than an infernal.

Talk to them about why they think they are dying - and what they can do to change it with their new characters. Our first characters were poorly built also - so don't sweat it. I feel that as more games pass, they will learn more about their characters and what makes them great.

In our campaign in the past, a new character came in slightly under the lowest character in the party.

Oh, and gin works wonders and makes your breath christmas-tree-fresh.

Cheers !

 

[Rechan]

In previous versions of the game, I allowed replacement characters to come in at (average party level)-1. Will this be a problem in 4E?

Not too much. The difference is this:
The player will have -1 to hit.
Fewer HP.
No shiny ability of that level.
-1 to skills.

There should be no problem, as long as you:
1) Factor in the Level-1 when creating the encounter (I.e. a level 1 monster in a level 2 encounter, instead of a straight level 2 encounter)
2) Be aware that the character is going to have fewer HP. Fewer brutes or lurkers might be appropriate when firing at that guy.
3) Skill challenges will be a little more difficult for the level-1 guy due to having a -1 to pertinent skills.

The surviving party members want to dictate the roles of the new characters (one Leader, one Striker). Should I allow this, or force them to accept the characters made by the players?

I firmly believe that no one should ever be forced to play something. Ever. You can have the other players encourage the other players, "Hey, this is what we would like." Many players are flexible in their taste of classes; suggest what is needed, and they'll fill it. But the minute they start hassling the players over their choice of classes, I'd come down on them.

The players, I am certain, are well aware of their weaknesses due to the selected classes. If the player chooses to not fill that gap, then that's his perogative. If one of the insistent players is so adamant about needing a leader/striker, he should play one if he feels it that crucial.

Besides. One of them all ready wants to play Another warlock. So, striker role taken care of.

In addition, you might want to adjust the encounters, based on the roles which aren't present. I can't find where, but the DMG addresses missing a role in a party when considering encounters.

The player of the Warlock wants to play an identical character (did I mention he is 14 CON, 18 CHA, Infernal Pact, and has no Infernal powers except Hellish Rebuke?). Which hard alcohol should I use to deaden the pain I feel inside each time I read his character sheet?

Bourbon.

I would say to the player that he can use the same stats, as long as he understands that if this character dies, he has to make a new one next time. Otherwise, you might as well change his name to "Kenny".

 

[fba827]

all of the characters were 'concept' characters based more on fluff than rules.

Sounds fine so far, I'm all for concept fluff characters

In previous versions of the game, I allowed replacement characters to come in at (average party level)-1. Will this be a problem in 4E?

Rechan covered everything I was going to say

The surviving party members want to dictate the roles of the new characters (one Leader, one Striker). Should I allow this, or force them to accept the characters made by the players?

You should only allow it is that's the type of game that will satisfy all players and yourself. But having said that ...

As a DM, I don't believe that all the roles need to be filled and instead let them play what they want and then (as the DM) adjust encounter make-up to compensate since different roles do better with different types of things (i.e. no controllers means fewer minions, etc)

As a player with a dead character, I would be a little annoyed if the other players "told" me what role I had to play for the new PC, especially if it was a role I was just playing. Maybe I don't want to play it? Maybe I want to try something different since I just played it?

You may want to ask the players with the dead characters -- ask if they really want to play the same roles again... and watch for body language. They could (at least the paladin) be silently resenting it. Plus, the warlock may consider something else (besides Kenny the warlock) if he didn't feel obligated to play a striker again.

The player of the Warlock wants to play an identical character (did I mention he is 14 CON, 18 CHA, Infernal Pact, and has no Infernal powers except Hellish Rebuke?). Which hard alcohol should I use to deaden the pain I feel inside each time I read his character sheet?

I don't know your group's personality dynamics or your relationship with him, or everyone's rpg experiences, so take all this with a grain of salt.
Any possibility of asking him in an indirect way: "Just curious, any reason you want to play a warlock again? Want to try a different class to check out some of the other stuff?" or "Okay, that's your character... since build-wise he is similar to the last one, what are your plans for his personality or goals to make him feel different than the last one?"

It's possible he really likes warlocks, or maybe it's the only 'striker' he wants to play, or he really likes arcane casters but doesn't want to be a wizard. or maybe he just has no creativity or whatever...

But, yeah, as a DM or player a recycled PC makes me sick to my stomach...

 

[Saeviomagy]

Should I allow this, or force them to accept the characters made by the players?

Neither solution is a good one.

That is to say: Noone should be dictating and noone should be forcing. Hopefully the players who are rerolling will have the sense to make characters that will fit in with the group, and the existing players will have the sense to allow them to integrate unless they're obviously designed not to. You're all there to have fun, after all.

 

[PHGraves]

I find the 'duplicate character' issue crops up relatively often with point buy and a beloved character concept. Escalating things is the fact that the Warlock player has made it known that he will continue to generate the identical character because he wants to see his concept in the higher levels (the player was dead-set against Tieflings and Warlocks in 3E but likes them in 4E). This is the only reason why I am even vaguely entertaining the other players' requests, but giving the Striker role to the Paladin's player and forcing the Warlock's replacement to be a Leader.

As much as I hate duplicate characters, though, I hate role enforcement even more (I was 'forced' to play the healer in several 3E games).

 

[Rechan]

I find the 'duplicate character' issue crops up relatively often with point buy and a beloved character concept. Escalating things is the fact that the Warlock player has made it known that he will continue to generate the identical character because he wants to see his concept in the higher levels (the player was dead-set against Tieflings and Warlocks in 3E but likes them in 4E).

Well, he's not going to see it function in the higher levels any time soon if he's starting at level 1.

So you might make a deal with the player: "Play something else. At any time around level 8 or on, retire your character, and bring the infernal warlock back in. Then you can see how well it flies."

Basically, express your displeasure with the duplicate character to the player, and try to get him to negotiate with you. You know what he wants; what you want is just for him to back off it a little bit.

 

[Jhaelen]

In previous versions of the game, I allowed replacement characters to come in at (average party level)-1. Will this be a problem in 4E?

That's what I've been doing in 1E/2E. In 3E characters started ad the midpoint of their previous level, i.e. just as if they'd been resurrected.

In 4E I'd do the same: Look at the Raise dead ritual and let the player create a new character with an identical amount of XP with reduced effectiveness for the first couple of encounters.

 

[thundershot]

If he keeps duplicating the character, you might as well just have it resurrected somehow. I mean, what kind of character development can you have with multiple clones? My group will go out and make it a QUEST to find the money and means to resurrect their comrade. Of course, it sounds like this player isn't into the character development aspect of the game if he just keeps cloning his character.... ESPECIALLY in 4E where standard is NOT ROLLING stats.



Chris

 

[fba827]

(snip) multiple clones?

Hmm.. that may actually make for something to be inserted in to the background? Maybe he does have multiple clones running around... once created by the BBEG who wanted spares of himself to throw people off his trail (but neither the player nor character knows any of that, just that he seems to have clones of himself running around) ;-)

Yes, I'm being a little serious and a little silly at the same time.