Request for Comment: Hero Points

[mxyzplk]

Or whatever you want to call them - Action Points, Fate Points, Karma Points, Plot Points, et cetera. For reference here's a good but somewhat dated summary of a bunch of hero point mechanics by John H. Kim.

Here's the deal. I want to use something like this for my new Pathfinder campaign. We've been pretty constantly using the Eberron "Action Point" mechanic (Eberron Campaign Setting, p.45) in all our group's campaigns since we saw it. You get 5 + 1/2 character levels of them, and they let you add 1d6 (or best of multiple d6 at high levels) to a roll before you know whether it's successful or not. They work pretty well. But I've begun to be dissatisfied with them.

I noticed it some in Rise of the Runelords and even more in Curse of the Crimson Throne that we'd end a level with a lot of action points left over. There were a couple reasons.

1. You would hoard them "just in case." This was somewhat mitigated by them refreshing every level, but you didn't know when you were going to level.

2. They didn't do all that much - you wouldn't use them unless you were ultra desperate or thought you were within 3 points of the DC you needed. As levels get higher and numbers range more widely, a lot of the time you knew there was no point in using the action point on a given miss.

3. Because of the inconsistency of the core D&D mechanic in terms of what is a d20 roll you are making and what isn't, you could use them to make a save but not to not get hit in combat, so their utility in saving your bacon was reduced. Though you can use an action point to stabilize when at negative hit points, again as levels get high it's rarer a shot lands you in that magic 10 point range; it's more likely to overkill you by like 30 points when it comes. D&D 3.5e number scaling past level 10 is a cruel mistress.

4. The APs tried to give hero points of their own, like Crimson Throne had Harrow Points that gave bonuses to a different stat with each chapter. This was frustrating in and of itself when the stat was a poor match - as a priest, fighter, and ranger was the party most of the time, I was the only one to use the Wis and Cha boosts. But it also created a "too many different boost points" problem and they got totally forgotten most of the time.

5. It was a buzzkill when you used one and still didn't make the roll.

We're also playing Alternity, which has Last Resort Points. These points are better in some ways. They're worse in that you get from 0-2 of them and they don't regenerate with level, you have to buy more with XP, which means they're too scarce. They're much better in that they just flat turn a failure into a success (or boost a success to a higher level of success).

Also, some systems (like PDQ Sharp's Style Dice) let you use such points to make actual narrative plot changes with points. "A Chelish warship appears on the horizon!" "Our old ally Vincenz shows up!" "The dungeon passage collapses!"

So there's a couple different axes that a hero point mechanic can work on.

* How do you get them/how do they regenerate? (Buy with XP, when you roll a crit, when you roll a fumble, when you do something cool, when you act according to some character trait, when you level, every game session, per adventure)
* What can they do? (Reroll, small fixed bonus to roll, small variable bonus to roll, large fixed or variable bonus, automatic success level upgrade, change plot/world, activate powerz, make a save/get missed/soak damage, get init or an extra action)
* When can you use them? (Before you roll, after you roll but before you determine the result, after you determine the result)
* How many does someone get and how often can they use them (anytime, once per scene, once per session, something else)

Here's what I'm thinking about doing.

First, I want the points to "do more" - ideally fully turn a miss into a hit or whatnot, not add on a small bonus. Seems to me that the mechanic's not worth having unless it does this much; otherwise it's a lot of fiddliness (and worse, a breaking out of immersion) without enough punch to justify it. So one option is that the points are fairly rare, but can:

* Turn a miss into a hit
* Turn a hit into a crit
* Turn a hit into a miss (usually, if you're the one getting hit)
* Turn a crit into a hit (same)
* Make a save
* Make a target fail their save (maybe... but maybe not. With save-or-dies seems too powerful. Maybe make a target reroll their save.)
* Bypass SR
* Override a bad condition (possessed, feared, paralyzed, etc.) for a round
* Otherwise "save your damn life" somehow

However, one of our group has an interesting alternate proposal - that the points go up in efficacy as you use them. First point you use is a +1 (or -1 on an opponent's roll). Second point, +2. And so on. This is a clever way to both ramp up effectiveness over time (I'm neutral there) and to discourage hoarding (I'm very on board with that). It does mean that eventually the points become worth +20 or more, at worst that reduces to auto fail/success but in higher level 3.5e play it may still not be enough sometimes. It is a little more fiddly though, they have to be strongly paced at about two per level.

I'd also like them to be usable to make narrative changes, with DM oversight. Any kind of hero point is already stepping outside the simulation for an explicitly narrative concern, so in for a penny, in for a pound, I figure.

In general you should give them for behavior you want to promote. I don't really like giving them for crits or whatnot, that seems too random and also generates undesirable interactions with crit feats. I'm doing slow advancement in this campaign, so there'll probably be a couple adventures per level. I plan to call them "Infamy Points" to match the pirate theme. Perhaps give one per level and one per adventure, to semi-reflect the character becoming more bad ass and feared and... infamous. Maybe bonus points whenever anyone does something spectacular that could rightfully be said to raise their infamy level.

I'm also considering having the Infamy Point total be used as a bonus to certain Intimidate/Bluff/Diplomacy rolls as a kind of raw fame and deadliness bonus, though the problem is that if you get 2-3 per level that bonus gets out of control. Maybe a bonus equal to unused Infamy Points?

What do all of you think? Do you use any kind of hero point mechanic? Do you like lots of them with wimpy bonuses, or fewer with more guaranteed results? Have any clever ideas for me?

 

[uffinf]

I have called them Fate Points and allowed their use on any d20 roll to turn the result into a natural "20". So it grants the PC an auto hit(and crit threat) or an auto successful save, what ever the benefit of rolling a "20" would have been . I gave 3 at first level plus 1 per level and used them as a rewards(sparingly) for good role playing or teamwork. I also used them to bride players to make certain race/class combos for story reasons.

I thought the system wokred OK but the players kept using them offensively and ran out before the save or die came up. I am currently pondering how to prevent that from happening, otherwise if thought the system worked a intended without being "fiddlingly".

 

[Aus_Snow]

Do you use any kind of hero point mechanic?

Surely do. In M&M, they're even called Hero Points. And I love the way they work in that system. Even if you get rid of spontaneous Alternate Powers, or limit them a great deal (I've tried both) they're incredibly flexible, and fun to use. Often quite neatly tied to character traits, as well. Oh, and they perfectly complement Extra Effort (which is one of my other fave aspects to the system.) I've ported Extra Effort and Hero Points to other d20 systems, with good results.

Some time before doing that, I came up with my own Hero Points (called Fate Points,) but they were quite similar to True20's Conviction, so I ended up just using them instead, once I picked up that book.

I've tried Action Points too, but didn't like them.

If I were going for 'straight' Hero Points, I'd go for few in number (typically 3 or fewer, I suppose) and big in effect. Maybe use one to treat the next roll as / replace a roll with a natural 20, or max out damage (or another variable) for one attack/effect. . .? Something like that, anyway. Grab another standard action for free, maybe? I dunno. And whatever else. Oh, and refresh per session.


edit --- OK, that was weird. I hadn't actually read your post, uffinf. But wow, it kinda looks that way. . .!

 

[Achan hiArusa]

In games instead of using the best d6 out of several, I just add them together like d20 Star Wars Force Points, so at levels 8-14 you added +2d6, and at levels 15+ you added +3d6. The only problem with using them this way was our player with incredibly bad luck who rolled 1d20 + 3d6 and got a "4" total. It did keep him from checking for a critical failure.

As for the limited resource, I just made remaining Action Points stack instead of being replaced at every level and I awarded a bonus action point for every successful encounter (somewhat like 4e) and that worked well, encouraging players to spend at least one every game session.

And I applied them to any situation that used a d20 roll, even if it was an optional rule from the 3.0 DMG (spell DCs and AC) and to d% rolls by multiplying the Action Point result by 5% (such as to miss chances, etc), but not to other die types.

 

[mxyzplk]

I have called them Fate Points and allowed their use on any d20 roll to turn the result into a natural "20". So it grants the PC an auto hit(and crit threat) or an auto successful save, what ever the benefit of rolling a "20" would have been . I gave 3 at first level plus 1 per level and used them as a rewards(sparingly) for good role playing or teamwork. I also used them to bride players to make certain race/class combos for story reasons.

I thought the system wokred OK but the players kept using them offensively and ran out before the save or die came up. I am currently pondering how to prevent that from happening, otherwise if thought the system worked a intended without being "fiddlingly".

Hmm, that actually sounds desirable. One of the problems I see with points that are used for offense and defense is that they get hoarded for defense. In our Savage Worlds games it came out that way - three bennies a session, use them for a weak ass attack bonus or to likely save your bacon in a "three wounds and you're dead" system - over two campaigns I doubt more than a handful of the points got used on anything other than soaking wounds, which while it enhances survivability is a little lamer than them being used proactively.

 

[Perram]

Hmm, that actually sounds desirable. One of the problems I see with points that are used for offense and defense is that they get hoarded for defense. In our Savage Worlds games it came out that way - three bennies a session, use them for a weak ass attack bonus or to likely save your bacon in a "three wounds and you're dead" system - over two campaigns I doubt more than a handful of the points got used on anything other than soaking wounds, which while it enhances survivability is a little lamer than them being used proactively.

The key is encouraging the PCs to EARN more of them during play. I use Hero Points in a similar way that Savage Worlds used bennies.

• Each player starts each session with 1 Hero Point.
• They can earn more hero points each time that they: 1) Do anything classically heroic (turn down a reward for saving someone, only ask for a kiss, etc... run into a burning village to save people with no concern for themselves, basically earning that 'G' in their alignment, which all characters have because we are running a heroic campaign.) or 2) Doing something climatically cool or an excellent description of something awesome happening. If it would cause an action movie to go into slow motion, it gets a reward.
• At the end of each session, all unused Hero Points are wasted, the next session starts you out with JUST 1 point.

 

[Wicht]

When we first started Rise of the Runelords, I used Action points and Hero Points both (explained in a moment) and I noticed the same problems with hoarding. I also found that too many of them simply detracted from the drama of using them. Over the course of the AP I fiddled with the system till I got something I like. So my current system is this: Each PC begins play with 1 hero point and 3 action points. Thats the maximum they can ever have. They action points are renewed when a PC levels up to the maximum of 3. The hero point is renewed when a full adventure (1 module, 1 AP book, etc.) is finished. Thus the hero points are normally reserved by the PCs for the final fight (which is appropriate) but not always.

Action points: Action points can be used to add 1d6 to any d20 roll before the DM says whether the roll is successful or not. At higher levels this increases to 2d6 and 3d6. An action point can also be used to recall 1 spell just cast or to provide a free standard action in a round.

Hero Points: A hero point can be used to make a single action automatically successful and highly so. In combat this translates to an automatic critical for one attack. It can also be used to avoid dropping below 1 hp once. That is, any attack that would reduce a PC to lower than 1 hp is countered by the hero point and the PC is left with 1 hp.

 

[mxyzplk]

Let's see. So far the things I've heard that I like are:

Use an Infamy Point no more than once an encounter to:
1. Take a natural 20 on a roll
2. Act out of initiative order
3. Get a free standard action
4. Cast a spell you don't have memorized (but know)
5. Declare "you missed me neener neener" to a weapon or spell attack
6. Use a feat you don't have or a class ability from one of your classes you don't have yet
7. Pull off a cool stunt automatically
8. Other game effect on request - bypass SR, whatever you need man
9. Limited narrative rewrite - introduce a story element, have someone show up at an opportune moment, have just the right piece of equipment around

You can also use an infamy point anytime to avoid death, though there will likely be permanent impact of some kind (scarring/disability, equipment loss, other). You can use multiple infamy points in collaboration with the DM to add/change larger story elements.

 

[mxyzplk]

The key is encouraging the PCs to EARN more of them during play. I use Hero Points in a similar way that Savage Worlds used bennies.

• Each player starts each session with 1 Hero Point.
• They can earn more hero points each time that they: 1) Do anything classically heroic (turn down a reward for saving someone, only ask for a kiss, etc... run into a burning village to save people with no concern for themselves, basically earning that 'G' in their alignment, which all characters have because we are running a heroic campaign.) or 2) Doing something climatically cool or an excellent description of something awesome happening. If it would cause an action movie to go into slow motion, it gets a reward.
• At the end of each session, all unused Hero Points are wasted, the next session starts you out with JUST 1 point.

Yes, with this pirate campaign I want that feel for the Infamy Points. Doesn't have to be 'evil,' but points will be given for 'being badass and memorable.'

 

[mxyzplk]

When we first started Rise of the Runelords, I used Action points and Hero Points both (explained in a moment) and I noticed the same problems with hoarding. I also found that too many of them simply detracted from the drama of using them. Over the course of the AP I fiddled with the system till I got something I like. So my current system is this: Each PC begins play with 1 hero point and 3 action points. Thats the maximum they can ever have. They action points are renewed when a PC levels up to the maximum of 3. The hero point is renewed when a full adventure (1 module, 1 AP book, etc.) is finished. Thus the hero points are normally reserved by the PCs for the final fight (which is appropriate) but not always.

Action points: Action points can be used to add 1d6 to any d20 roll before the DM says whether the roll is successful or not. At higher levels this increases to 2d6 and 3d6. An action point can also be used to recall 1 spell just cast or to provide a free standard action in a round.

Hero Points: A hero point can be used to make a single action automatically successful and highly so. In combat this translates to an automatic critical for one attack. It can also be used to avoid dropping below 1 hp once. That is, any attack that would reduce a PC to lower than 1 hp is countered by the hero point and the PC is left with 1 hp.

Hmm, the thing I'd be worried about is the "too many random points" thing - in Curse of the Crimson Throne we used Action Points and the AP gave Harrow Points and it was a PITA keeping them straight (though some of that was that the HP benefits varied by chapter).