Response to Psionics Nerf (Move from inappropriate placement in House Rules thread)

[wildstarsreach]

I already know what the balances are.

I basically (like others) totally disagree with your suggestions in that thread. Capping PP for low level powers does not address any real balance issues, rather it is a clunky bandaid that does not resolve the problem that it supposedly is meant to fix.

Please let the suggestion be as it was meant, to give the creator of the thread additional opinions and knowledge to solve the problem.

here's though an example of going nova. 15th level Telepath psion with 240 PP

Round 1 46 PP 194 left
Temporal acceration for 2 rounds 15 PP
sub round 1 Schism 7 PP
sub round 1 vigor 15 PP
round 1 schism 9 PP mind thrust

Round 2 50 PP 144 left
Temp Acc for 2 rds 15 PP
sub round 1 Energy Conversion 13 PP
sub rd 2 Force screen for +7 AC 13 PP
Schism round 2 9 PP Mind thrust

Round 3 46 PP 98 left
Temp Acc for 2 rds 15 PP
sub rd 1 Freedom of Movement 7 PP
sub rd 2 Inertial Armor +10 AC 15 PP
Schism Rd 3 9 PP mind thrust 9 PP

Rd 4 54 PP 44 left
Temp Acc for 2 rds 15 PP
sub rd 1 Delayed Energy Wave 13d6 15 PP, regain focus as move
sub rd 2 Delayed Energy Burst 13d6 15 PP, regain focus as move
Schism rd 4 9d6 energy burst 9 PP

In 5 rounds of combat, where the character does protect themselves and attack, they are spent for the day. This is an example of what I have done. The only reason the character survived was that he was a cerebrmancer and was 18th with being effectively a 13th level wizard to fall back on.

People are concerned that a psion can burn out at high levels so fast and it's true but the cost is very high at not being effective for later encounters. Round 4 could have been done on round 2 and 3 if protecting your butt isn't a concern.

Wizards and sorcerers have their combos that are as effective but do not totally make the character so weak for further encounters.

I am not as zealous as I once was about nerfing psionics but they still need some tweaking to reduce a few problems in that they are too versitle with their energy powers.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Since the DM knows that it's going to be low-encounter per day, modifying the rules to account for that makes sense.

Exactly, which is why my group has gone with granting psionic charcters/monsters 1/4 of their power point total per encounter, instead of their normal total per day.

They have to meditate/arrange flowers for 5 minutes in order to refresh their PP.

 

[irdeggman]

Exactly, which is why my group has gone with granting psionic charcters/monsters 1/4 of their power point total per encounter, instead of their normal total per day.

They have to meditate/arrange flowers for 5 minutes in order to refresh their PP.

Did you also limit spontaneous casters in the number of spell slots they can use too?

Wizards (and other non-sponatanous casters) don't have the same problem becasue they must fix the spells they know ahead of time and can't freely choose which spells to cast at a certain time so smart preparation is the key for them.

With a single (or very, very few) encounters per day psions come out on top but spontaneous casters are not far behind, especially at low to mid levels where the psion can't fully benefit from augmentation due to the limit on pp he can use on a given power.

 

[KarinsDad]

Please let the suggestion be as it was meant, to give the creator of the thread additional opinions and knowledge to solve the problem.

Please let people disagree if they wish to disagree.

And, what problem?

The explicit design that psions are supposed to be able to fully augment like crazy in a short period of time, even to the point that they run out of PP?

How is that a problem?

A first level Wizard can run out of decent spells in 2 rounds. Not 4 encounters, 2 rounds. Nobody is claiming that we should change the Wizard spell rules to handle "this problem".

here's though an example of going nova. 15th level Telepath psion with 240 PP

Round 1 46 PP 194 left
Temporal acceration for 2 rounds 15 PP
sub round 1 Schism 7 PP
sub round 1 vigor 15 PP
round 1 schism 9 PP mind thrust

Round 2 50 PP 144 left
Temp Acc for 2 rds 15 PP
sub round 1 Energy Conversion 13 PP
sub rd 2 Force screen for +7 AC 13 PP
Schism round 2 9 PP Mind thrust

Round 3 46 PP 98 left
Temp Acc for 2 rds 15 PP
sub rd 1 Freedom of Movement 7 PP
sub rd 2 Inertial Armor +10 AC 15 PP
Schism Rd 3 9 PP mind thrust 9 PP

Rd 4 54 PP 44 left
Temp Acc for 2 rds 15 PP
sub rd 1 Delayed Energy Wave 13d6 15 PP, regain focus as move
sub rd 2 Delayed Energy Burst 13d6 15 PP, regain focus as move
Schism rd 4 9d6 energy burst 9 PP

Well, of course if you are not going to follow the rules, you can do anything:

Splintered or partitioned minds within your own mind, such as might be in effect through the use of powers such as schism, are not temporally speeded up, even if your second mind manifested this power (your primary mind gains the benefit, while your second mind remains stuck in the standard time frame).

So, in round one, you could not Schism.

Your second mind takes its first action on your turn in the round after schism is manifested.

Your second mind is not sped up, hence, it does not get to immediately act. To the second mind, it is the same round and it cannot act until the real round two.

In 5 rounds of combat, where the character does protect themselves and attack, they are spent for the day. This is an example of what I have done. The only reason the character survived was that he was a cerebrmancer and was 18th with being effectively a 13th level wizard to fall back on.

So, your character did 5 attacks in 4 rounds (the first round schism does not count), 3 of them area affect powers, and the encounter was still going strong? That's a DM issue of overchallenging the group, not an issue of Nova. What were the rest of the PCs doing? Standing around?

People are concerned that a psion can burn out at high levels so fast and it's true but the cost is very high at not being effective for later encounters. Round 4 could have been done on round 2 and 3 if protecting your butt isn't a concern.

Actually, your example is way overzealous in manifesting defensive powers. That battle would probably have been over one or two rounds earlier if the Psion area affect attacked starting in round two. Your example seems way contrived.

Wizards and sorcerers have their combos that are as effective but do not totally make the character so weak for further encounters.

I am not as zealous as I once was about nerfing psionics but they still need some tweaking to reduce a few problems in that they are too versitle with their energy powers.

Why?

You have yet to illustrate why using up most or all of a Psion's PP is a problem.

Is it a problem when a group has a party Druid and the Druid casts all of his Cure spells after the first encounter?

Should the DM tell the Druid: "I do not care if PCs are still injured, you HAVE to save some of your Cure spells for later encounters."?

Let people just play the game. This is NOT a mechanics issue. It's a tactics issue. Your perceived problem is just in some people's heads, but it is illusory. No different than a Fighter deciding to barge into every room, regardless of there potentially being traps there.

It is a player decision, not a DM decision. It is not broken, it works well as designed. It just happens to be different than the capabilities of other classes. But, that is not a problem. It is a difference. If you do not like it, do not allow psionics in your game.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Did you also limit spontaneous casters in the number of spell slots they can use too?

Yep – 1/4 of their spells per encounter, instead of their normal total per day.

So even a high level caster's spells per encounter might look something like: 2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1

 

[irdeggman]

Yep – 1/4 of their spells per encounter, instead of their normal total per day.

So even a high level caster's spells per encounter might look something like: 2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1

Now that indicates a more well thought out means of applying the D&D system's design to a specific gaming style and not a quick reaction to only adjust one thing.

There are probably a few other issues that may arrise but IMO they should be minor compared to the sponataneous caster/psion issue.

 

[KarinsDad]

Exactly, which is why my group has gone with granting psionic charcters/monsters 1/4 of their power point total per encounter, instead of their normal total per day.

They have to meditate/wank for 5 minutes in order to refresh their PP.

Which also means that if the DM throws an extremely powerful encounter their way or if they run into that 1 in 5 combat where dice rolls are almost all going against the PCs (or, both happens simultaneously), the spontaneous PCs have very few ways to "go to the well" and pull out the big guns, at least in their primary capabilities.

Instead, the party tends to die, just for some sense of balancing out the PC capabilities.

Since the classes are supposedly balanced to some degree in the first place, do you give the Sorcerers and Psions some other benefits (like extra feats) since you nerfed them so heavily at a per encounter level?

I could easily see low level Psions and Sorcerers dying easily. 1 or 2 PPs or spells at second level just seems extremely weak.

 

[green slime]

Which also means that if the DM throws an extremely powerful encounter their way or if they run into that 1 in 5 combat where dice rolls are almost all going against the PCs (or, both happens simultaneously), the spontaneous PCs have very few ways to "go to the well" and pull out the big guns, at least in their primary capabilities.

Instead, the party tends to die, just for some sense of balancing out the PC capabilities.

Since the classes are supposedly balanced to some degree in the first place, do you give the Sorcerers and Psions some other benefits (like extra feats) since you nerfed them so heavily at a per encounter level?

I could easily see low level Psions and Sorcerers dying easily. 1 or 2 PPs or spells at second level just seems extremely weak.

No worries. See, you just reduce all the hp's by a quarter as well. Seeing as how they only have one encounter instead of four, they should be able to make do with a quarter of the hp's (round down). So
1st Wiz has 1hp + (Con mod)/4
1st Rog has 1hp + (Con mod)/4
1st Clr has 2hp + (Con mod)/4
1st Ftr has 2hp + (Con mod)/4
1st Bbn has 3hp + (Con mod)/4

Sounds like a challenging and fun game to me!

 

[White Whale]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't know much about psionics), but if I'm understanding this isn't the psion similar to a wizard, only that the psion has the possibility to push the "I WIN" button in the first encounter every day?

Or similarly, suppose that a wizard has the ability called "Nova":
Nova (Su): A wizard may expend all his spells to instantly win an encounter. This ability may only be used if he has cast (almost) no spells this day.


Clearly, the wizard with the Nova ability is a lot more powerful than a normal wizard.

 

[KarinsDad]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't know much about psionics), but if I'm understanding this isn't the psion similar to a wizard, only that the psion has the possibility to push the "I WIN" button in the first encounter every day?

Or similarly, suppose that a wizard has the ability called "Nova":
Nova (Su): A wizard may expend all his spells to instantly win an encounter. This ability may only be used if he has cast (almost) no spells this day.


Clearly, the wizard with the Nova ability is a lot more powerful than a normal wizard.

The flaw in this thinking is that the Psion wins, even when he is Novaing.

The Psion (or Wilder or whatever) has limitations:

1) 80% of all psionic powers have a range of Close or shorter.

2) Although he can manifest more than a single power per turn, Wizards can cast more than a single spell per round starting at first level if the Wizard has a Swift or Immediate spell as well. The Psion does not get to really manifest a lot of powers until mid-level and even then he is typically limited to 2 or 3 per round (whereas the Wizard tends to be limited to 2 per round).

3) Psions have difficulty buffing others, cannot cast illusions, etc. There are many Wizard like abilities that Psions just cannot get (even simple ones like Mirror Image).


The real difference is that the Wizard (or Sorcerer) runs out of high level spells quicker whereas the Psion can keep manifesting the equivalent of high level powers every round until he runs dry. That is the true strength of a Psion. It's not round one where he shines in encounter one, it's round four.


Having played a fairly well tweaked out Elan Psion for 10 levels, I have to admit that the Psion is very self sufficient (she went unconscious once in 10 levels, mostly due to Resistence and Resilience, but those are Elan abilities). But, battles are not won solely with self sufficiency. Every battle won when I was playing that Psion was a team effort.